The Forced Induction VR6 thread

[marcus 0]

Sounding good Rob.

I think your taking the right route in going for gradual power increases. Is cost effective, still fun, plus u alwys have something extra to work towards.

Storm Developments are only 20 mins up my road, give me a shout when u pop there so i can see your car.

[herisites 0]

Sounding good Rob.

I think your taking the right route in going for gradual power increases. Is cost effective, still fun, plus u alwys have something extra to work towards.

Storm Developments are only 20 mins up my road, give me a shout when u pop there so i can see your car.

 

Cool will do mate. At the minute cost effectiveness is ideal for me, so for the sake of 20-30bhp less and saving the money for a remap etc its worth it, besides like you said its still going to be fun anyway it will still be supercharged and will still have about 260bhp ish so im happy with that for now. Then save up and get the head rebuild with metal spacer gasket and ARP bolts etc and go for some silly power :twisted:

[herisites 0]

Quick update. I know what im doing now to get it finished and up and running! Basically i have decided to just go for the smaller power and save some money as well as save my head gasket no doubt! Storm sell a custom fuel tap/regulator which you attach within the fuel line that gives allows more fuel flow and can work with the supercharger up to 7psi and doesnt require mapping! The tap isnt cheap at about £175 but its £175 for the tap as apposed to £100 for red tops and then a £400 remap!

 

I still need all the pipework though, Storm said that the price for all the piping from them is going to come to around £300, well thats a lot of money isnt it? I know that theirs will come with a galvanised metal pipe as well as added bits for the ISV etc but im not going to be running high boost and aquamist yet so the metal pipe isnt needed is it? And the ISV etc can be added easily cant it? He just said its drilling a hole in the top elbow and plugging the ISV plug in and then an additional pipe to go to the ISV or something along those lines anyway! So could i save much money by just buying all the pipes etc myself from siliconhoses.com and making the ISV attachment etc myself?

 

If anyone wants to make a list of what i need that would be helpful lol but im pretty sure its just the following:

 

* 76-51mm reducer off tb (silicon)

* Joiner

* 135 degree 51mm elbow (silicon)

* Straight 50mm pipe

* 51mm coupler to connect the pipe to the outlet of the charger

* 76mm 90 degree elbow off charger inlet

* MAF

* Cone filter

 

Will i need any more than that? Im guessing i will between the 90 degree elbow and MAF and a bit of straight between the MAF and cone?

[yeti 0]

erm should saving money and charging you engine come in the same breath... if i were you dude wait and do it properly, otherwise your throwing money at a non ideal solution that you'll eventually need to spend money on anyway!

[mrbeige 0]

Rob, I have to agree with the Yeti there, to be fair. No point wasting money. And, since when have you ever gone for the non-ideal solution??

 

It just means you will be sepnding £675, rather than £500 in the long run...

[herisites 0]

it wont work out like that though, i have pretty much everything i need now to fit the charger, bar the piping which i will get sorted out soon. If i spend the £500 on injectors and getting it mapped at about 8psi then yeah i will most probably get between 280-300bhp but with that power i then need atleast aquamist to keep the charge temps down so its going to cost a fair bit more and be more work. And then i have to prey the engine holds which at 140k and never had any head work done is probably unlikely!

 

So by just leaving it with stock injectors now and fitting this fuel regulator thing (which im sure i could sell on when i upgrade anyway) its good to go without any mapping, will still produce about 260bhp at about 6psi which wont run hot enough to need cooling (ok it would most probably benefit but its not competely necessary unless running 8+ psi) and it wont put the engine under as much pressure so it will last as my play car through uni (using my new beast of a polo as my daily 8) ) whilst i save then i can get the head rebuild with metal head gasket and ARP head and conrod bolts etc and get it mapped for some silly power!

[StormchargedVR6 0]

You could try http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk for your hoses & pipe work there very good, got a

lot of my stuff from them. 76 to 51 reducer is £13.31, there no way £300 worth pipe work

[herisites 0]

You could try http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk for your hoses & pipe work there very good, got a

lot of my stuff from them. 76 to 51 reducer is £13.31, there no way £300 worth pipe work

 

Nice one mate i will give them a try. Didnt think it would be that much :roll:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

£175 for a fuel regulator and £300 for pipework?! Flippin eck they saw you coming mate!

 

Just get the bare minimum you need to physically fit the charger to the engine from Storm and nothing else. They are ripping you off.

 

The rest we can help you with. I also agree with the other guys, go straight to 8psi and get it mapped properly and save yourself some money. If the engine is going to let go, it will do it at 6psi just as easily as it would running 8psi so that shouldn't be a concern right now. So long as your chains are OK, you have no worries. If the chains are knackered, you shouldn't be putting a charger on it at all!

 

If you want it to last, you should also be doing the ARP rod and head bolts now, not later.

 

Not meaning to lecture, but I get the impression you're going into this a bit blind and leaving yourself open to financial preying from the likes of Storm.

[NickVR6 0]

Glad your going charged mate you will love it!!

 

I put my charger on at 135,000 miles and it loved it with NO aquamist or anything. I have since had the head clutch and chains done at Stealth which upped things from 279 to over 292hp. I then fitted the Aquamist, but due to a wiring discrepency :lol: my aquamist pump is no longer with us, but ive been enjoying some serious driving in mine recently and all is good.

 

I may be able to help with some of your pipework from what ive bought and not used. PM your mobile and ill give you a shout.

 

and to 3rd whats been said, 8psi mate. then if you get stuck with that fuel thingy there's a lot of good map knowledge around for 8 psi. My current map is insanly good, its impossible to fault and imo better than it was standard. i would fit an AFR gauge if your going to rely on some fuel device rather than a map btw, head gasket is a pain but not expensive in the scheme of things, melted pistons are though :-(

 

i dont mind being on call as im sure Mr Cheese also doesnt when your fitting it 8)

[StormchargedVR6 0]

NickVR6 your alive :lol:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

He must have got a pass from the wife to use the computer :lol:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Ha ha, VF Engineering are getting into Turbos! Oh the irony.... they were totally against them a few years ago :lol: Not for VR6s at the moment, but they're sure to tap into that market....but are just currently working on the easy cars are that are blow to begin with....

 

http://www.vf-engineering.com/cat-index-turbo.php

[twin charged r32 0]

Hi Rob,

Andy from storm - The cheapest way to get your piping would be from silicon hoses - as all ours have been made from kitsets we don't have any spare but i think it maybe benificial to get a 51- 76 or 80 straight depending on throttle size - then use a 76mm or 80mm straight tube then a 76mm or 80mm 135 bend to the throttle.

We have already talked about what you need on the intake.

As for the fuel regulators they are expensive at £149+vat but they do work and are specially made for the vr with Rotrex low boost - however you may be able to get a good deal from stealth on mapping.

 

Good luck with the install.

[CrazyDave 0]

Bit of an update:

 

I've been doing some experimenting with using a standard Motronic ECU to run my VRT. At this point the Megasquirt has been put to one side due to its lack of sequential injection.

 

This is what's fitted at the moment...

 

Standard OBDI ECU (Late VR CP model). Standard mapping.

Standard Injectors.

BEGI rising rate regulator.

Carbon cannister and vapour recovery valve fitted.

Breather connected.

ISV between post CC boost pipe and shortrunner.

Innovate LM-1 AFR meter.

Standard narrowband O2 sensor.

Running fixed 8psi boost.

 

Inlet pipework:

 

Cone filter behind bumper at the side - straight pipe run through standard MAF housing - 3" to 4" transition pipe - Turbo - 2.25" Pipework - Tial 50mm BOV - Charge cooler - TB - Shortrunner Manifold (CrazyDave special :) ).

 

Exhaust:

 

Cast manifold - Turbo - 3" SS downpipe - narrow & wideband lambda - No cat - Jetex 2.5"

 

Setup the BEGI with a pressure gauge as per the instructions. Initial pressure set as per instructions. Slight further adjustment needed for NA to boost transition. Then a couple of turns on the gain valve whilst watching the AFR. Now set at 12:1 and pretty steady right across the boost range.

 

Now the above runs very well. But a few problems with the BOV during gear changes causing over fueling then cough when back on the gas (only slight). So some 'elastic trickery' called for!

 

I came up with a small box of electronics to intercept the MAF signal. This also has a MAP sensor connected to the inlet manfold. The MAP detects the condition just before MAF clipping occurs and filters it out, replacing the signal with a simulated NA engine throttle closed MAF signal.

 

It also needed a bit of filtering to stop something I noticed with a scope attached, I think it was low speed turbine disturbance of the MAF signal. The MAF signal had that 'wab wab wab' oscillation you can hear in the exhaust note? No problem for the signal processor.

 

The box has a little screen so you can see whats going on. The numbers are just internal digital values at the minute, but can be calibrated to give boost pressure / vacuum, MAF volts, AFR etc. TPS should say MAP in the above picture, I started with TPS but decided MAP would be better.

 

http://www.d2designs.vispa.com/videos/M4V00629.MP4

Sorry no reving action, couldn't reach the pedal while holding the camera :lol:

 

Anyway the result.... super smooth VRT running on standard Motronic ECU!

 

Gearchanging is now crisp, overfueling has gone, no popping and banging, behaves itself in all driving conditions. If I was being really fussy (which I am) it could do with a bit more timing down the bottom end, or maybe fuel?

 

Future plans:

Trim the narrow band sensor from the wideband sensor. The turbo setup could do with a bit more fuel on part throttle. I plan to trick the ECU into thinking it's running lean when it actually isn't by simulating a lean narrow band signal. This should make the idle a bit steadier, as Motronic trims the idle fueling very hard for emissions.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Awesome work Dave 8)

 

I'm very interested in that Motronic Piggy box of tricks. I'm keen to follow this path as my Turbo + OBD2 + Begi worked very well too, apart from the part throttle clipping. Would this box stop that?

[herisites 0]

Guys im just ordering my piping. Do i definately need to run it at 50mm as far up to the TB as possible for low down torque or shall i go straight to 80mm after the charger outlet? Will the 50mm affect charge temps at all as it will be compressing more? Will it matter that im not running a diverter valve or is it best to go with 80mm without diverter valve so the pressure isn't as high?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

50mm to the throttle would work best in your application.

A turbo would keep spinning to automatically fill the void of an 80mm pipe, but your charger can't as it's governed by crank speed, so only up the bore 80mm right at the throttle.

 

Intake temps won't be anything to be worried about with 6psi.

 

Try it without a diverter valve and if it behaves weirdly on part throttle and overrun, fit one.

[herisites 0]

Cool thanks Kev. So i want a 76-51mm reducer on the TB and then from then on 51mm to the charger outlet. Is the throttle body a definate 80mm and will the 76mm reducer fit over it as they dont have 80mm?

 

After the reducer it will be a 135 degree elbow which im guessing i would need to plumb my ISV into?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah the 51-76 will work OK. It might be a very slight stretch over the throttle lip but that's not a problem. I think it is 80mm yeah, never measured it!

 

Keep the silicon sections as short as possible to reduce boost flexing, so ideally you want a metal pipe coming off the charger.

 

Yep, the ISV goes into the 135 degree elbow. You can get various fittings to allow this if it's a silicon elbow. All you're doing is creating an air leak between both sides of the throttle plate, so anywhere on that pipe will be OK.

[marcus 0]

Any of you guys fitted a EGT gauge?

There existence has just been brought to my attention :)

If not, what are your opinions on these, are they worth it etc? Ta

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah I have an EGT gauge mate. Second one down on this page - http://www.turbobits.co.uk/acatalog/digital_exhaust_gas_temperature_egt_gauge.html

 

It's tiny and I went with the green backlit LCD version for the OE look. I mounted it under the blank section of the rev counter for easy reading.

 

EGT monitoring is a very good idea with a turbo and it's more than just a temp gauge for exhaust gas. For instance, if you are accelerating hard and the EGT suddenly reduces, you know the engine is pinking. Too much oxygen reduces flame temperature, not enough oxygen increases it, so it's a great tuning tool.

 

EGTs for a nicely setup VR turbo as follows:-

 

Idle - ~ 370

 

50mph crusie - ~ 525

 

80mph cruise - ~ 700

 

Full boost - ~ 850-900

 

If you approach 1000 degrees, it's advisable to slow down for a while :lol:

[mrbeige 0]

If you approach 1000 degrees, it's advisable to slow down for a while :lol:

 

Sorry, but that sentance does make me smile! I'm guessing that you've done that then Kev?

[herisites 0]

Ok i just ordered my piping from silicon hoses and ebay. I went for an alloy elbow and alloy straight which will come off the charger outlet and then go in to the 135 degree silicon bend which i will plumb the ISV into and then the reducer on to the TB. Also got a 90 degree 76mm elbow coming off the charger inlet and then i will just need to get some flexi piping so i can run the MAF horizontal somewhere in the front bumper as mines OBD1. That sound about right? I hope so as i have just spent over a hundred quid :lol:

 

Just need a cone filter now and thats everything i need to mount the charger.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Mr Biege, once or twice :lol:

 

Herisites, yes sounds about right. Something like this will help you make a neat outlet for your ISV - http://www.revotec.com/Self-Seal.htm