The Forced Induction VR6 thread

[CrazyDave 0]

Cool write up thread Kev, but can you please stop tempting me to go turbo!! :lol:

 

 

Get that R32 sorted with the V9 Vortech, then you could still go turbo but R32 turbo instead!!

 

 

Great writeup Kev, shall I post up some alternative charge cooling stuff for a bit of variety?

[KADVR6 0]

kev, i'm looking into getting some of the MSD coils, how easy were they to fit?? and do you need a bracket or something that can be bought to mount them on??

 

any advice is greatly appreciated :)

 

also, what is the best gap for the spark plugs for a charger vr6? i have been told 0.065 by one source, 0.032 by someone else?? i have the denso iridiums in at the moment,

 

karl

[mic_VR 3]

Ok one for the turbo'd guys.

 

My sisters boyfriend has offered me the turbo off his '93 Subaru Impreza STi, as he's fitting a bigger one but he's not sure what type/size the old one is. Does anyone know what it'll be and more importantly whether i'll be able to use it to turbo a VR?

 

Just the idea of having a turbo'd vr is making me weak at the knees! :lol: :lol:

[gezza 0]

on a 93 sti if it is a sti it will be either a td 05 rear entry or a ihi vf22.

 

unless its been upgraded but i doubt it. btw its more likely to be a td 05

[Kevin Bacon 5]

ZidderApple, :lol: Do it mate, you won't regret it!

 

Dave, yes please mate. We've got intercoolers covered by H8RRA and James, so a couple of different chargecoolers would be good.

 

I also need details of Z engineering and Rotrex superchargers if anyone has these items on their VRs. I want this to be the 'complete' forced fed VR thread 8)

 

KadVR6, I'd start with .030" and gradually open them up until it misses.

 

.065" is more than double the stock gap and difficult to achieve reliably. You'll need some really good leads and plugs. NGK BKR7E's open up nice and hold the spark.

 

Also, bear in mind if you open them up too far, you'll run into missing as they wear out and will need regapping, so it's better to go for a mid setting (.040") which will give you more burn time between gapping.

 

Once you open up the plugs quite wide with no missing, you can then increase your timing on boost and get more power. You can also add a load more timing at the bottom end too, which really awakens the VR, removing it's low rpm lethargy.

 

I'll cover the MSD parts in a seperate post to make it clearer.

 

Mic_VR, the Subaru turbo will give you installation headaches and it's not big enough really. I'd personally stick to the manifold Dave and I used for ease of installation and good flow, and a Garrett GT turbo for reliability and power.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

MSD coil conversion - parts list and quantities :-

 

Bracket to hold them x 1- Gruvenparts bracket

 

The coils x 3 - MSD 8224 coils

 

Lead ends x 1- 8MM HEI Female ends

 

Ballast Resistor x 1 * - MSD 0.8ohm

 

* - A word on the Ballast resistor.

 

Most people running this conversion have found you need a ballast resistor when using the VW coilpack amplifier. I believe this resistor limits the current from the VW amplifier to prevent them burning out, and it works.

 

If you are using a Standalone ECU, you should not need a ballast resistor. Certainly the DTA ECUs don't need a resistor.

 

The VW coilpack is wired with only 5 wires:-

 

Pin 15 - Live feed to the coils. The ballast resistor goes on this wire.

 

Pin ? - Earth

 

Pin 1/6 - Coil for plugs 1 and 6

 

Pin 3/4 - Coil for plugs 3 and 4

 

Pin 5/2 - Coil for plugs 5 and 2

 

It's a wasted spark system, so it doesn't matter which of the two ouputs you connect your plug leads to, for e.g. 1 and 6 can use either output, but NOT connected to 3/4 or 5/2. I hope that makes sense?

 

You need to take the VW pack apart to get to the VW amplifier. It all comes apart very easily and is self explanatory when it's in your hand.

 

Once you've removed the bank of 3 coils, you will see a Telefunken amplifier inside the metal body of the coil pack and is where you wire your coils to. The gruven parts bracket is designed to sit on top of the metal part of the pack and acts as a spacer, as per my earlier pics.

 

I don't have any pics of the coilpack stripdown and build up process, but these forums do:-

 

VWFixx MSD thread

 

VW Vortex MSD thread

 

P.S - I don't know of a UK supplier for the MSD coils, so if anyone finds one, please update the thread, but bear in mind they will be over twice the price from the UK ;-)

 

If you want black coils, look for the "Accel" brand, but beware some aren't waterproof, the MSDs are.

 

Good luck!

[KADVR6 0]

cheers for that kev, i have magnecor leads on at the moment, with the denso iridiums, i have got the gap at 0.040 at the moment and it runs well enough, but when you get conflicting stories of so called experts?? you start to wonder :?

 

but here is another stupid question (sorry) but when you say "You can also add a load more timing at the bottom end too, which really awakens the VR, removing it's low rpm lethargy." this is where you 100% lost me :? how do you do that???

 

and the info on the MSD was great mate.

 

karl

[CrazyDave 0]

but here is another stupid question (sorry) but when you say "You can also add a load more timing at the bottom end too, which really awakens the VR, removing it's low rpm lethargy." this is where you 100% lost me :? how do you do that???

 

and the info on the MSD was great mate.

 

karl

 

I think Kev means you can apply a bit more timing at the bottom end to get more torque. But, it needs a standalone ECU or Motronic programming capability. Although thinking about it, Motronic would be less likely to pull the timing for knock with a better burn, so it might be more eager to stay put after a reset.

 

The cars back together by the way Karl, if you fancy popping down sometime, let me know. Looks like another Worcester meet is in the pipe aswell.

 

Cheers for the MSD info Kev, although it looks like my chargecooler is in the way, but I've seen a picture with a set mounted on top of the rocker cover, so might look at that.

 

As an alternative charge cooler idea, I've used this little lot from http://www.chargecooler.co.uk

 

A different approach to the Schimmel kit but seems to do the job nicely.

The really nice thing about the PWR cooler is that it will fit under the bonnet without relocating the battery and it doesn't have a large water tank in the boot. It is only rated to 400hp versus the Schimmel at about 600ish if I remember correctly.

 

Most of the cooling is acheived by running the fan on the small CC radiator all the time. The inlet air temp sits about 10 degrees above ambient even after a hard run and the cooler is always cold to touch. Pressure drop is about 1-2 psi for this size cooler (10"x4"). Most of the water volume is in the pipework and it only has a small header tank for topping up the water level.

View of the cooler core.

 

Fits under the bonnet nicely. Not sure the MSD coilpacks will fit in here? I'll have to order some and have a look.

 

Small 10" radiator fits in front of the normal radiator with a couple of brackets that I knocked up and some rubber bobbins to isolate any vibration. It only just fits behind the front panel and I did have to modify the fan brackets a little to get it to sit back a bit. The water pump is again rubber mounted under the NS wing / front bumper off the horn bracket. Fan and pump are wired to an ignition feed via a fused supply.

 

The best bit for me was that the whole thing only needed two M8.5 holes drilling in the front panel (for the rubber mounts), so no cutting, hacking required. At the end of the day cold air is what is needed, if you touch the boost pipe before the CC it's really hot, but the outlet is cold, job done 8) .

[KADVR6 0]

cheers Dave, i thought i would need some form of standalone from what kev was saying, and when is the next worcester meet happening??

[CrazyDave 0]

cheers Dave, i thought i would need some form of standalone from what kev was saying, and when is the next worcester meet happening??

Up for discussion at the mo, I suggested this weekend!

[KADVR6 0]

loads of usefull stuff on vwvortex about turbo's/chargers, i spend almost as long on that site as on here.

 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeroforum?id=113

 

if your not signed up on there? you should be.

[StormchargedVR6 0]

Have gone for the schimmel chargecooler set up, same has kev. It is a fair amount of work been you got to relocate the battery and run the water pipes under the car. The hardest part was fitting the exchanger in front of rad, i was lucky to get a 20'' exchanger from schimmel which fits in but very tight, did'nt even remove bumper, just made some brackets to fit under rad and used the spal fan pins though the fins of exchanger and rad, leaving 1 inch gap for air.

Using a 11'' & 8 '' spal fans should work a treat, the 8'' is on a switch under dash for when stuck in traffic. Heres few pics so far (log still to fit)Corrado92.pdfTray in place.JPG[/attachment:d1a9a]passat climatronic wiring diags.pdfexchanger 1.JPG[/attachment:d1a9a]climatronic wiring-Golf from May 01.pdfspal fans in.JPG[/attachment:d1a9a]2.8l 24v Climatronic system.pdfwater tank.JPG[/attachment:d1a9a]cooler in.JPG[/attachment:d1a9a]

[chazrad 0]

Nice pics there Stormchargedvr6. Interesting to see that you are still running the Shrek, but how does your pipework run? Surely the pipework from charger to chargecooler and back to TB is really long so you are losing a fair amount of psi. Wouldn't short runner be better in order to cut down on boost lost, just like on Kev's and Dave's cars?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

The Chargecooler isn't hooked up to the S/C yet as the plastic dust caps are still on it ;-)

 

He has a Schimmel log, but hasn't put it on yet. I think it 's still work in progress.

 

Cheers for the extra pics Dave and Shaun, much appreciated.

 

KADVR6, yeah, sorry I meant increase the ignition advance. A standalone would be best for that and I assumed you had, or were going to get the Omex ECU? That was you wasn't it, or am I imagining things? LOL!

 

0.040" with the standard coilpack?! Sounds like you don't need the MSDs then :lol:

[KADVR6 0]

no kev, your not imagining things mate, i wll be getting the omex as soon as i sort out the bloody extension/garage mate.

[StormchargedVR6 0]

Sorry Chazrad this is the SP manifold still to fit ,and the Autometer boost gauge that matchs the vr dash a treat :D 2.8l 24v Climatronic system.pdfS P Manifold.JPG[/attachment:a2d34]boost gauge in.JPG[/attachment:a2d34]

[chazrad 0]

Sorry Chazrad this is the SP manifold still to fit ,and the Autometer boost gauge that matchs the vr dash a treat :D

 

Ah, it all becomes clear now!! Looks like its going to be great Shaun. Interested to see what the power improvements are over the Shrek/without c/cooler. You rrealise that this will nearly be the ultimate set up possible when using a 'charger (smaller pulleys aside). If you want much more after this, you'll have to go turbo!! :lol:

[StormchargedVR6 0]

Anyone on here running a duel idler , as im looking at 15psi .I think i mite get a bit of slip.

Im using a 7rib belt, and will be going round the back of alternator, but will it be enough :?

 

Spoke to Raj this morning and he said 15psi to much for a V9 , it won't take it .

He told me lot of people in states are having problems with the v9 and 15psi :(

hes trying to get me a duel idler and 12psi pulley, really want to try the 15 :)

 

Also spoke to vince today, he said the same 15psi a lot, but did praise the Schimmel charge

cooler im using said its the best yet, after seeing kevs working.

[RS VR6 0]

The dual idler is not a direct fit for the V9. If you want to make 15psi...I would go with a V1, intercooler, lower compression...or maybe a turbo. :lol:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Agreed /\

 

The V9 is fine with 12psi and with the Shcimmel cooler and intake, you're going to get at least 11.5psi of that into the engine, which should give you around 330hp with around 315lb/ft torque.

 

15psi is indeed too much.

 

If you do definitely want 15psi, you're going to want even more after that, so you're treading a dangerous path toward Turboland mate :-) Or Rotrex land...

 

350 isn't enough these days though and Rotrexes are appearing on everything, from Pug 206s to BMW M3s.

 

Remain competetive, get a turbo, a BIG turbo 8)

[StormchargedVR6 0]

Anyone got a 12psi, need one for next week. :?

[StormchargedVR6 0]

Next year TURBO, if i don't get the power i want.

Been trying everywhere for 12psi pulley :(

 

The 15 will have to go on :) if it blows its blows

[mrbeige 0]

So what is the differnece between the Rotrex chargers and the V9? Is it just the size, or is there some sort of cunning engineering going on?

[CrazyDave 0]

So what is the differnece between the Rotrex chargers and the V9? Is it just the size, or is there some sort of cunning engineering going on?

 

The method of gearing the engine crank speed up for the compressor.

 

V9 uses a mechanical gearbox, hence the gear whine and chatter at different speeds.

 

Rotrex uses a planetary drive with friction coupling (ie no gears), and a special gear fluid. The gearing is much higher than the V9 and the unit is very quiet, so you'll get more boost lower down the range with this baby (can you guess this would have been my choice before going turbo!).

 

http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/rotrex.html

Diagram of the Rotrex.

[alex303 0]

So what is the differnece between the Rotrex chargers and the V9? Is it just the size, or is there some sort of cunning engineering going on?

 

There's some distinctly cunning engineering mate, use a different type of gearing etc that gives very high efficiency and nice globs of boost low down the rev range'

 

cut & pasted from the Rotrex website:-

Key to the Rotrex supercharger's unique compactness, efficiency, low noise and reliability is its state of the art traction drive technology.

 

Great speeds and low noise are just some of the advantages of traction drives over traditional gear transmissions. Traction drives transmit power through friction forces between its rolling elements.

 

The Rotrex patented traction drive uses an elastic annulus with a small pre-span to secure contact between the roller planets and the sun shaft with a reasonable force. The patented "ramp effect" increases efficiency and reliability in the transmission by regulating the torque transfer capability on demand through self-adjusting planet geometry.

 

To enhance performance, the Rotrex traction drive uses a special traction fluid. These fluids are a new family of synthetic hydrocarbon oils and greases offering a series of unique performance advantages. Developed specially for its use in Rotrex superchargers, the SX100 momentarily increases viscosity under high surface pressure, enhancing the traction drive performance by securing the optimum friction between rolling elements while cooling and protecting the system.

 

In a few months i'm having a 30-84 fitted (younger brother of the 30-94 but basically the same casing & internals), its the slighly earlier SP series (e-bay purchase) rather than the current C series but still very capable as it uses the same technology! As a footnote most of the Rotrex's people are looking to use are the C30 series (as these are the ones to be fair that have brackets kicking around for them), but have a look at the specs of the C38.....now if someone could make a bracket for that, that would be very interesting to say the least!