The Forced Induction VR6 thread

[Philmo 0]

Going back to fuel pumps, mine's running with uprated pump [stealth supplied, presumably Walbro?], PR valve with as deep a dimple as Vince dare press in plus std injectors and returns 279/292 bhp, depending on barometric. Vince advises there's perhaps 20bhp left in the capacity of the std injectors.

[VR6Joni 0]

Hey guys,

Pullies are about 60 euro I think Rob, I was thnking 85-90mm to start with, better safe than sorry I think.

 

Don't get the 90mm pulley, it will not fit! 85mm is border line, ended up being a real pain in the arse for me I.e. belt scrubbing against it's self. 80mm will probably be safe.

[poll250 0]

Don't get the 90mm pulley, it will not fit! 85mm is border line, ended up being a real pain in the arse for me I.e. belt scrubbing against it's self. 80mm will probably be safe.

 

That's a bit shocking, I was imagining a lot more scope for playing with boost levels. The smallest pulley is only 70mm, so not much room on either the 84 or 94!

 

Do you have the 84 or 94? C-30 or SP-30 model type?

 

What bhp/torque are you pushing out with the 80mm?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Going back to fuel pumps, mine's running with uprated pump [stealth supplied, presumably Walbro?], PR valve with as deep a dimple as Vince dare press in plus std injectors and returns 279/292 bhp, depending on barometric. Vince advises there's perhaps 20bhp left in the capacity of the std injectors.

 

Yeah Vince supplies the Walbro GSS340, aka "Cosworth Spec" as it's the same pump Escort Cossies use and many of them realise 500 crank power with that pump.

 

292+20hp spare from standard injectors? I seriously doubt that using a 1:1 fuel reg. A BEGI fuel riser perhaps, but no way with stock fpr. It's why VF Engineering shipped the Stage 2 S/C kits with 315cc red tops.

[poll250 0]

Ok, I'm starting to get a bit of a list together of what I'll need to order. It seems to be getting longer by the day at the moment lol.

 

So at the moment I'm planning to run a recently refurbed engine/box with a new standard clutch and Wavtrac diff in, VT front and rear mount and standard GB mount. The HG has just been replaced and I don't really want to mess with ARP bolts etc at this time.

 

For Cooling I'm thinking of going for a progressive DevilsOwn kit:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Devils-O ... ccessories

 

and for monitoring AFR, an Innovate LC-1 Wideband with gaugel ike below:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Innovate-DB-Red-L ... 19b88db4eb

 

I'll keep an eye out for some red tops, they're all 150 + shipping at the moment :( and a Walbro intank pump as suggested. I should be able to sell my brand new standard fuel pump for a good amount! Will I need a new sender unit for the Walbro GSS340?

 

With fuelling, cooling and a good strong standard engine, how much boost could I run? 10psi? or would I need ARP bolts at that stage?

 

Then comes the hardest part - MAPPING!

 

I've got three options I guess:

 

1. I was thinking of using the 10K resistor trick on the MAF, in conjunction with the LC-1(well hopefully with someones help!) to run until I'm happy with everything.

 

2. Get it remapped at Stealth/Storm

 

3. Get some management from C2 - I've been in contact with them and they've been really helpful so far, I'm still not sure exactly how it works though - and they say that as I have an older 6-pin MAF I can't go over 8psi as the 3inch housing is too small. Is this true?

 

If I'm honest I don't really understand the C2 software - do they just give you a generic chip for your mods, and then you need to buy aa new chip when you change something like say cams or up the boost?

 

If anyone has any suggestions I'd love to hear them!

 

Andy

[junkie 0]

Speak to CorradoVR6-Turbo as he runs C2 stuff.

[Philmo 0]

Going back to fuel pumps, mine's running with uprated pump [stealth supplied, presumably Walbro?], PR valve with as deep a dimple as Vince dare press in plus std injectors and returns 279/292 bhp, depending on barometric. Vince advises there's perhaps 20bhp left in the capacity of the std injectors.

 

Yeah Vince supplies the Walbro GSS340, aka "Cosworth Spec" as it's the same pump Escort Cossies use and many of them realise 500 crank power with that pump.

 

292+20hp spare from standard injectors? I seriously doubt that using a 1:1 fuel reg. A BEGI fuel riser perhaps, but no way with stock fpr. It's why VF Engineering shipped the Stage 2 S/C kits with 315cc red tops.

 

But :

N426YNN bhp 052008.jpg[/attachment:104nn2lq]

These results at ambient 1013 mb, losses 61bhp

At R Toad Day Nov '09 279 bhp at ambient 973 mb, losses 58 bhp [after 6 branch and 500mm of 80mm suction hose added and drives much more smoothly]

The fpr is as far from stock as it can be taken. The injectors are medium brown and standard to the best of my info and similar to most others in VR's [part No not known].

Any explanation Kev?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Will I need a new sender unit for the Walbro GSS340?

 

No mate, the 340 sits inside the stock fuel pump housing (replacing the standard Bosch pump) and the fuel level sender hangs off the side of that, so it's a quick and easy job!

 

With fuelling, cooling and a good strong standard engine, how much boost could I run? 10psi? or would I need ARP bolts at that stage?

 

On 10:1 compression I personally wouldn't exceed 10psi. I ran 12psi on the stock compression with a Vortech V9 and it wasn't terribly happy about it. And that was with OBD2, which is better than OBD1 when it comes to knock control etc.

If you're planning on running a Rotrex, I'd definitely drop the compression if exceeding 10psi!

 

1. I was thinking of using the 10K resistor trick on the MAF, in conjunction with the LC-1(well hopefully with someones help!) to run until I'm happy with everything.

 

Yeah that would work. It was done in conjunction with the Saab 360cc 'red tops' though, but I'm sure the smaller 315cc reds would work too. I would have a chat with CrazyDave on that one as he pioneered that method :salute:

 

2. Get it remapped at Stealth/Storm

 

Again, another viable option. Vince at Stealth has pretty much nailed VR6 S/C and Turbo mapping. I find his mapping for drivability approach more appealing than mapping for outright power. I've had several S/C maps done by him a few years ago and I was always happy with his work.

 

3. Get some management from C2 - I've been in contact with them and they've been really helpful so far, I'm still not sure exactly how it works though - and they say that as I have an older 6-pin MAF I can't go over 8psi as the 3inch housing is too small. Is this true?

 

You have OBD1, which C2 don't really specialise in. They focus mainly on OBD2 as it's a far better management system than OBD1. Yes, they are correct, you can indeed get MAF problems with 8psi (output voltage exceeds 5V) and the normal process is to fit a 4" MAF housing, which is tricky with OBD1!.

I feel the best solution for you could be a custom map based around this - http://www.promracing.com/mass-air-meters-c-2/pro80-p-5

It's a far more robust MAF than the standard one and less fussy with compressor turbulence. And it's cheaper than a new stock MAF from VW!!

C2 have used these MAFs on their Stage 3 turbo software (630cc) with great success.

 

There is also the standalone option of course, but that can get expensive and probably not worthwhile for you if (no offense) you don't understand mapping.

 

If I'm honest I don't really understand the C2 software - do they just give you a generic chip for your mods, and then you need to buy aa new chip when you change something like say cams or up the boost?

 

They do indeed give you a generic chip, which on OBD2 seems to work well enough for most people. They say with 440cc injectors, there's scope within the map to provide fuelling for up to 20psi or something.

 

OBD1 may need retweaking with mods as it's not quite as flexible as OBD2.

 

C2 and Stealth are both very helpful and talented, so which ever way you go, I'm sure you'll be happy. Personally speaking, if you're staying OBD1 and definitely going Rotrex or Turbo, then Vince would be my first choice.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

These results at ambient 1013 mb, losses 61bhp

At R Toad Day Nov '09 279 bhp at ambient 973 mb, losses 58 bhp [after 6 branch and 500mm of 80mm suction hose added and drives much more smoothly]

The fpr is as far from stock as it can be taken. The injectors are medium brown and standard to the best of my info and similar to most others in VR's [part No not known].

Any explanation Kev?

 

I just noticed in your Sig you're running stage 1, so 6psi?

 

In that case, yeah the stock injectors can just about sustain that. Even so, 280hp from 6psi and stock injectors is good going :salute:

 

Stage 2 - 3 (8 to 12psi) got the red tops.

[poll250 0]

Thanks very much for the Kev, a lot of food for thought! I like the look of that MAF too

 

I'm in contact with CrazyDave and C2 so we'll see what happens over the next few weeks as I start assembling the large pile o' parts!

 

Andy

[VR6Joni 0]

Don't get the 90mm pulley, it will not fit! 85mm is border line, ended up being a real pain in the arse for me I.e. belt scrubbing against it's self. 80mm will probably be safe.

 

That's a bit shocking, I was imagining a lot more scope for playing with boost levels. The smallest pulley is only 70mm, so not much room on either the 84 or 94!

 

Do you have the 84 or 94? C-30 or SP-30 model type?

 

What bhp/torque are you pushing out with the 80mm?

 

I'm running an SP-30-94 with a 85mm pulley and my belt self destructed :cuckoo:

 

It was running close to 12psi, so what ever power that would give with conservative timing.

I'm now remaking the bracket as it just isn't right, I couldn't get the tensioner to run true as well the belt interfering.

[poll250 0]

Bad luck Joni.

 

Seems strange that they'd make and advertise pulleys 70- 105mm but you can't actually fit one larger than 80mm without running into problems. I guess it must just be an issue with the way they fit to the vr head compared to other cars. I guess I'll got for an 84 and 80mm pulley to be safe then!

 

What's the crack with head spacers? CrazyDave said I should def get one, and would run I to problems past 250bhp without one? The engine I'm getting from Karl has just had a new head gasket and I didn't really want to change it straight away, but if it's essential I'm sure it can't be too hard!

 

What's a good one to go for? Dubpower?

[VR6Joni 0]

With the C30-84 with an 80mm pulley I think its safe to say that reducing compression ratio should come fairly high up on your priorities list. At a guess I'd say you will be looking at a potential 11psi. Which also means charge cooling would also be highly recommended. You may well get away with aquamist at that boost level, but obviously some sort of heat exchanger system would be more effective and less to worry about (I.e. tank level.)

The list will continue to grow, trust me!

Oh and I'm sure the dub power spacer will be fine as they are just sheet steel cut the same as the head gasket.

[poll250 0]

With the C30-84 with an 80mm pulley I think its safe to say that reducing compression ratio should come fairly high up on your priorities list. At a guess I'd say you will be looking at a potential 11psi. Which also means charge cooling would also be highly recommended. You may well get away with aquamist at that boost level, but obviously some sort of heat exchanger system would be more effective and less to worry about (I.e. tank level.)

The list will continue to grow, trust me!

Oh and I'm sure the dub power spacer will be fine as they are just sheet steel cut the same as the head gasket.

 

 

Thanks for the advice Joni.

 

I think maybe I'll change plan a bit having learn't a bit more, ditching a few non essential items like cams and 6 branch for a bit. As well as ditching the idea of 10k resistor/Storm fuel reg and Wideband and just use that money for a proper remap at Stealth or D&G. Seems a much safer option for pretty similar outlay really.

 

So my shopping list would then be:

c30-84 with 80mm pulley and mountings

360cc Bosch Injectors (got a brand new standard fuel pump that should last a while at least)

Spacer Gasket and ARP head bolts

Some kind of cooling -Been leaning towards DevilsOwn water/Meth Injection with progressive controller, which can be had for 250 delivered from eBay.

 

Not really sure what the crack is with Chargecooling - is it a lot more complicated and expensive? Does anyone have a recommendation? I don't really want the battery in the boot if possible!

 

Andy

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Not really sure what the crack is with Chargecooling - is it a lot more complicated and expensive? Does anyone have a recommendation? I don't really want the battery in the boot if possible!

 

Yep, good chargecoolers are heavier, more complicated and considerably more expensive than an air-air intercooler.

 

I went down the Chargecooler route because I didn't want to modify the bumper and slam panel. I use a genuine VW US spec air con radiator as the heat exchanger, which fits infront of the main engine radiator in a very neat and OE fashion :D

 

I don't mind having a tank of water in the boot and I moved the screen wash bottle back there too. I relocated the battery to where the arm rest used to be and modded the arm rest accordingly to cover it up. You do need a sealed battery if moving it to the interior, or make sure if using a regular lead acid, it's gases are vented out to atmosphere via a small hole in the floor.

Again, I don't have an issue with the battery being relocated. The arm rest is dead space anyway and I'd rather have 20Kg of battery between the axles instead of ahead of the driven wheels.

 

As for which method of intercooling is better, it's an age old debate. The bottom line is this - size either method properly and you won't have any problems :D

 

Water being a far superior coolant to air does have a few advantages, such as more even and consistent control of temperature - no sudden heat spikes, huge heat soaking capacity (depending on tank volume) and very fast heat transfer, much, much smaller intercooler required and much shorter boost pipework.

 

The latter doesn't really make any odds with turbos, the air pressure increases so damn quickly that a huge boost path doesn't really increase lag, not that you'd notice in the real world anyway.

 

What we have found with Vortech Superchargers though is they hate long boost paths and intercoolers. We usually see a 4psi drop through an air-air IC with the V9, regardless of size. It just doesn't seem to have enough raw flow to compete with the IC's air swallowing capacity. Bobbi and Shaun on here who used the Schimmel Chargecooler with the Superchargers got zero boost drop though!

 

The Rotrex I'm led to believe doesn't suffer as bad as the Vortechs in this respect.

 

At the end of the day a crap intercooler is a crap intercooler, whether it be water or air cooled, so fit the best you can afford and size it appropriately and all will be well in the world :D

[poll250 0]

Hmm more food for thought thanks Kev!

 

My problem is that I have a bike in the car with the seats folded down for 7 months of the year, so need all the room I can get out back!

 

I think maybe Water/Meth injection is the best route for me to take at the moment, and look at chargecoolers down the line. I dont think it's too much trouble checking the fluid level every few days/week through summer.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Same here mate and I also have a rear strut brace, but I have no trouble getting my mountain bike in and out of the boot :D Off with the front wheel and it slides in nicely! I also do regular dump trips in it, they're surprisingly capacious cars inside!

 

Water injection is OK and it doesn't use half as much water as you might think. The OE 4.3L tank used to last me a month at least, including screen wash use.

[junkie 0]

Holts screenwash for the win as it has methanol in it, don't use any for water injection that contain ethanol though or so I have been told.

[VR6Joni 0]

I think maybe I'll change plan a bit having learn't a bit more, ditching a few non essential items like cams and 6 branch for a bit. As well as ditching the idea of 10k resistor/Storm fuel reg and Wideband and just use that money for a proper remap at Stealth or D&G. Seems a much safer option for pretty similar outlay really.

 

So my shopping list would then be:

c30-84 with 80mm pulley and mountings

360cc Bosch Injectors (got a brand new standard fuel pump that should last a while at least)

Spacer Gasket and ARP head bolts

Some kind of cooling -Been leaning towards DevilsOwn water/Meth Injection with progressive controller, which can be had for 250 delivered from eBay.

 

Not really sure what the crack is with Chargecooling - is it a lot more complicated and expensive? Does anyone have a recommendation? I don't really want the battery in the boot if possible!

 

Andy

 

I'd say your plan is definitely coming together now, larger injectors and remap are the way forward.

One thing to note, you will probably still require some method of reducing the MAF output as it is likely to clip (its output becoming higher than the voltage the ECU can deal with) at the air flows you will be achieving. I found the the potentiometer mod worked a treat for curing this problem!

Why 4" MAF's were ever used I don't know :cuckoo:

[poll250 0]

Yeah 4" MAF would have been good, maybe I'll used the resistor for a bit while I look into swapping mine out.

 

CrazyDave told me they are working on getting newer 4-pin MAFs to work with older 6 pin wiring, which would allow it to be put into a 4" housing. Another thing to add to the future plans list lol.

 

Have you got any photos of your current MAF/air filter set up Joni? I've been thinking about removing the fog lights (never use them anyway) for a cold air feed and trying to put the air filter behind there somewhere. I'm not too sure if there'd be problems with water getting in though?

 

Although, thinking about it, you'd have to hit a pretty big puddle to get a lot of water through the foglight hole lol

 

Andy

[VR6Joni 0]

I have managed to get it all between the bumper and inner arch using a bit of ducting, however I'm still not happy with this setup. I'm afraid I haven't got pictures, but the setup is as follows:

Charger -> 90deg silicon bend(with recirc hole cut into it) -> Flexi ducting (300-400mm) with 180 deg bend in -> MAF - Narrow Filter (one of the bits I'm not happy about).

Also this requires removal of the bumper to clean the filter, the other bit I'm not happy with :mad2: .

I also cut slots into the bumper insert to allow more cool air to this area.

This does work and is just about good enough to minimise turbulence and recirc surges to an acceptable level, however I have noticed on the odd occasion loss of power straight after a gear change which I can only assume being due to recirc air screwing MAF reading up.

I'm hoping to change this before it goes back on the road in march, I'll be sure to post my findings.

[Philmo 0]

Hi Jon - is this arrangement anyuse to you?

It uses short radius 80mm silicon available from an outfit in Cleckheaton.2.8l 24v Climatronic system.pdfPB161253.JPG[/attachment:3szg50cu]

PB161252.JPG[/attachment:3szg50cu]

This fits without any mods, save a little enlargement where the carbon cannister used to pass through the inner wing flange.

[VR6Joni 0]

Hi Jon - is this arrangement anyuse to you?

It uses short radius 80mm silicon available from an outfit in Cleckheaton.

This fits without any mods, save a little enlargement where the carbon cannister used to pass through the inner wing flange.

 

Possibly, where does the filter actually end up with that setup then?

I can't picture where it will end up.

[Philmo 0]

Hi Jon - is this arrangement anyuse to you?

It uses short radius 80mm silicon available from an outfit in Cleckheaton.

This fits without any mods, save a little enlargement where the carbon cannister used to pass through the inner wing flange.

 

Possibly, where does the filter actually end up with that setup then?

I can't picture where it will end up.

 

All the silicone, MAF and filter are below the inner wing flange, behind the OSF bumper and above the splash guard. The bellmouth on the alloy bend mates with the suction inlet of the V9.

V difficult to see unless you're underneath - if you're in Royston anytime you're welcome to have a butchers - she lives over the pit most of the time.

[_leon_ 0]

Nice bottle of Aberfeldy there!