Definitive 24v into a (VR) Corrado thread

[borachris 0]

Thanks guys, I've found 3 places it'll go but neither the wire colour or connector colour match, really should have taken more notice when I took it out!

 

At the moment it's cranking but can't hear the fuel pump priming, tested the big ECU connector and don't have 12v at pin 3 which I assume I should.

 

The fuel rail has fuel in it though because when I pressed the valve on the end of the rail fuel came out, can't understand how because the pump isn't working!

 

Gonna give mark from swict a ring today to see if he can shed any light on what the problem is

[J.C 10]

here's some info you could find helpful

http://www.a2resource.com/electrical/management/motronicvr6aba.html

http://forums.kilometermagazine.com/showthread.php?5797918-Mk4-AFP-VR6-swap-into-CE2-MK2&p=78729637 Got a great 24v motronic pinout diagram 1/3rd down the page

I'm having a look at the Bently wiring diagram at the moment, just to confirm, it's a yellow/black and not a black/yellow wire (first colour being the thickest)

[borachris 0]

Cheers J.C, I'll check out those links tonight after work!

 

I think it's yellow/black, hard to tell from the picture above, will have to double check that!

[Fanjita 1]

Chris, I don't think the plug matched in colour either. It wad black if I remember correctly?

 

It was on the other row of connectors. I really wish I could remember what it was, it did present itself as a minor glitch though when I had it in the wrong plug. Mark I think told me it was this when I explained it to him.

[borachris 0]

Chris, I don't think the plug matched in colour either. It wad black if I remember correctly?

 

It was on the other row of connectors. I really wish I could remember what it was, it did present itself as a minor glitch though when I had it in the wrong plug. Mark I think told me it was this when I explained it to him.

 

No it definetly doesn't match in colour, wire or connector, that would be too easy lol

 

I'm hoping Mark will know what I've missed straight away, otherwise this could be a painful process, I hate wiring tbh!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Alternator wiring, I'm using the 24v Alt, it has 2 pins, the 12v Alt only has 1 pin, is it as simple as just using pin #1 or does pin #2 need to be used also, if so where does it go to? I've read about this somewhere but can't find the info again!

 

I used the R32's 2 pin plug but with just the 12V exciter wire on the bottom pin. Worked fine. I think the R32 has 2 pins because it controls the voltage output. You get an "Alternator Workshop" error on the display if there's a problem with it.

Before fitting the alt, make sure the pulley spins freely in both directions and there's no clanking sounds. The Valeo R32 alts are more reliable than the earlier Bosch ones.

 

 

The speedo circuit is autonomous from the engine harness and you don't need to do a thing to it. If you're using 12V clocks and gearbox, nothing needs changing.

[VW_OwneR_85 2]

I honestly don't think you need to worry about that yellow/black wire, if in dought trace it back to where it ends in the loom and then your know for sure, when you switch ign on do you hear the throttle body buzzing sound? ,this is the problem when some one else does your loom

{as I found out} if something doesn't work your pretty much on your own with it unless that person can come to you,

[borachris 0]

Cheers Kev, I've used the bottom pin :)

 

Forgot to ask Mark about the speedo, I didn't think it needed to be changed from the VR one, maybe Mark thought I was using the audi gearbox, although he knew that was DSG so obviously not! Speedo is the least of my worries at the minute anyway lol

 

I honestly don't think you need to worry about that yellow/black wire, if in dought trace it back to where it ends in the loom and then your know for sure, when you switch ign on do you hear the throttle body buzzing sound? ,this is the problem when some one else does your loom

{as I found out} if something doesn't work your pretty much on your own with it unless that person can come to you,

 

Mark said that the yellow/black wouldn't stop it starting but couldn't remember off the top of his head what it was. He also said I should have a 31 or 32 relay for the ECU(third from left on too row) after checking I have a 109(which is upside down?)

 

What relay have you guys got in this position?

 

We did hear a buzzing noise of sorts, I panicked because I thought it was the ECU lol

[VW_OwneR_85 2]

What relay have you guys got in this position?

 

We did hear a buzzing noise of sorts, I panicked because I thought it was the ECU lol

 

I use relay 109 for my BDE 2.8,, its to do with the ecu earth trigger, think with relay 32 you don't need the earth trigger wire from ecu,so try relay 32 like he said, yea with the buzzing noise its more of a long BEEEEEEEEP and that's a good thing :)

[borachris 0]

Well Rubjonny off edition reckons a #30 will do the job, he said the 109 uses ignition live trigger and the 30 and 32 use an earth trigger. My mate has found me a #30 so fingers crossed, we'll find out on Wednesday!

 

Lol yeah a beeeeeeep is a better description for the noise we heard

[J.C 10]

After spending a few days last week tidying up the wiring in the engine bay, first I tried to connect all the wires to the engine via a 66pin round plug from RScomponents, got 3/4 of the way through it and realised it was just too tight given that the thicker wiring needed to be branched out to 2,3 or even 4 pins so as to not overload an individual pin,

Then it dawned on me that if I ever was to remove the engine, the ECU plug is readilly accesasable anyway,

 

but what I did find out was that when I was chopping out all the unneccesary wiring and plugs was that the wire supplying 12Volts to the coil pack was only .5mm and this had to be connected (soldered and the heatshrinked) to the factory 2.5mm wiring,

Now when I had my car on the rolling road before, there was a definate tailoff of power at 5000rpm, and I thought I'd test how much voltage drop I get when the coil is supplied by the thinner cable,

The result was quite shocking but understandable,

At 5000rpm the voltage at the coil pack was a shade under 11 Volts,(10.96V)

so i wired a relay into the circuit using the thin .5mm wire as the trigger wire and using a supply straight from the battery,

Tested it again and now the coil pack recieves nearly 14Volts,

driving it seems to rev quicker at the top of the rev range, but it could be just imagining it,

But there is a reason why heavy duty wire is used, NOT so it doesn't burn out (look at the thickness of the element in a 30Amp fuse) it,s because of Voltage drop

 

 

To calculate voltage drop in a copper wire, use the following formula:

 

 

Volts=

 

Length x Current x 0.017

---------------------------------

Area

 

Volts= Voltage drop.

Length= Total Length of wire in metres (including any earth return wire).

Current= Current (amps) through wire.

Area= Cross sectional area of copper in square millimetres.

 

Notes:

• This formula only applies to copper at 25°C, voltage drop increases with wire temperature, at approx 0.4% per °C.

• 0.017- This figure only applies to copper.

• Area is in square millimetres of copper, there can be confusion on how cable size is rated, with some manufacturers stating wire diameter rather than area

 

sorry for the long winded post but with all this re-wiring going on when converting to 24V I thought it was relevant

Edited October 15, 2013 by J.C

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Cheers Kev, I've used the bottom pin :)

 

Forgot to ask Mark about the speedo, I didn't think it needed to be changed from the VR one, maybe Mark thought I was using the audi gearbox, although he knew that was DSG so obviously not! Speedo is the least of my worries at the minute anyway lol

 

 

Nice one. If the dash battery light doesn't go out with the engine running, switch it over to the top pin :D

[J.C 10]

Nice one. If the dash battery light doesn't go out with the engine running, switch it over to the top pin :D

Looks like mine has both joined up together!!!

[borachris 0]

Well I'm well and truly stumped now guys

 

Swapped the ECU relay from a 109 to a 30, as Mark suggested, now we have the live at pin 3 of the ECU plug, also found a single red/yellow wire which I found a home on the fusebox for, now have a live at pin 62 of the ECU plug too, happy days I thought!

 

Fuel pump still doesn't prime, check for power at fuse, all good. Checked for power at the pump, yep all good, no fuel comes out when cranking but there IS fuel in the rail, so it must have worked at some point? It can't be left from when the engine was removed as that was over 6 weeks ago!

 

Tried a genuine VCDS, it connects up but won't communicate with the controller, try's a few times then gives up, same with a non genuine slightly older vagcom cable.

 

OBD has all the correct feeds etc, tested continuity between the OBD port and the pin on the ECU plug and it was ok.

 

Also pulled a coilpack and there isn't a spark

 

Throttle body is still beeping also I think it clicked a couple of times

 

Need to speak to Mark again tomorrow but I just don't know where to go from here tbh :(

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I posted some info about that in your build thread which may or may not be useful :D

 

J.C, I don't think it matters if they're joined together! I'll try and confirm what the second wire does but I think one is for the clocks and one for the ECU or power relay circuits.

[VW_OwneR_85 2]

Well I'm well and truly stumped now guys, I just don't know where to go from here tbh :(

 

when I scan my ecu I switch ign to on and wait until the throttle body stops being noisy {any sooner and it says cant connect etc etc}then click on vcds/vagcom select mk4 golf/bora from the menu and scan ,

 

seeing as your throttle body is making noise then it wouldn't be the wire that I was stuck on, maybe worth checking the ecu earth wires, use this pic and make sure the lives and earths are right using a multimeter, this photo was the sole reason I got mine working! I had some one do my loom and I couldn't get fuel or spark it was live wire 21 that wasn't hooked up but my loom guy didn't have anything for that wire!! so if I hadn't of found this pic I would of been very very unhappy! btw without that wire you cannot scan the car and your throttle body doesn't beep at all so you don't have that problem by the sounds of it,

 

[J.C 10]

Kev, I'm not sure, it's just how the previouse guy did it so I havent looked into it,

Re. when people say the throttle body "beeps", mine makes a high pitch faint whine, definatly no beeping, I also have trouble with controller not responding (VCDS) and a lumpy (slight missfire) idle, any more info would be great,

Whilst on the subject, is it normal for the timing to jump around (mostly at idle), I goes from values like -8 to -17, I've been thinking this is why my idle is lumpy but cannot find the cause of why the ECU is adjusting the timing.

I've been presuming that if you disconnect varios sensors (MAF, Lambdas) it would then failsafe to a base tuning map

I've disconnected the Lambdas and MAf/AIT and there has been no change in the uneveness at idle

I'm sure it's not the usual "VR6 rough idle" you hear about, it's like a intermittent missfire.

if someone could check their timing at idle and record the values, that would be a great help

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Well I'm well and truly stumped now guys

 

Swapped the ECU relay from a 109 to a 30, as Mark suggested, now we have the live at pin 3 of the ECU plug, also found a single red/yellow wire which I found a home on the fusebox for, now have a live at pin 62 of the ECU plug too, happy days I thought!

 

Fuel pump still doesn't prime, check for power at fuse, all good. Checked for power at the pump, yep all good, no fuel comes out when cranking but there IS fuel in the rail, so it must have worked at some point? It can't be left from when the engine was removed as that was over 6 weeks ago!

 

Tried a genuine VCDS, it connects up but won't communicate with the controller, try's a few times then gives up, same with a non genuine slightly older vagcom cable.

 

OBD has all the correct feeds etc, tested continuity between the OBD port and the pin on the ECU plug and it was ok.

 

Also pulled a coilpack and there isn't a spark

 

Throttle body is still beeping also I think it clicked a couple of times

 

Need to speak to Mark again tomorrow but I just don't know where to go from here tbh :(

 

The joys of R32 conversions!

 

Yeah you don't want a 109 for the fuel pump, it's not man enough! All you need is the R32's fuel pump trigger wire fed to relay 167 in the Corrado fuse board, simples :D

 

Which VCDS lead do you have and did you join the R32's K-line wire to the Corrado's? Think it was a grey wire with white tracer if memory serves.

 

I would suggest at this stage you find a spare *standard* ECU on ebay, for 2 reasons. 1) To prove the wiring and 2) it's not unheard of for ECUs to go bad after someone's been at it to deimmobilise it etc.

 

 

 

Kev, I'm not sure, it's just how the previouse guy did it so I havent looked into it,

Re. when people say the throttle body "beeps", mine makes a high pitch faint whine, definatly no beeping, I also have trouble with controller not responding (VCDS) and a lumpy (slight missfire) idle, any more info would be great,

Whilst on the subject, is it normal for the timing to jump around (mostly at idle), I goes from values like -8 to -17, I've been thinking this is why my idle is lumpy but cannot find the cause of why the ECU is adjusting the timing.

I've been presuming that if you disconnect varios sensors (MAF, Lambdas) it would then failsafe to a base tuning map

I've disconnected the Lambdas and MAf/AIT and there has been no change in the uneveness at idle

I'm sure it's not the usual "VR6 rough idle" you hear about, it's like a intermittent missfire.

if someone could check their timing at idle and record the values, that would be a great help

 

Yep that's a normal throttle body check. The whine is the frequency of the DC motor that lives within, which is approx.10Khz. The clunk is just it opening and closing, perfectly normal.

 

These failures to connect to the ECU concern me. What leads are you using chaps? I bought a Rosstech HEX+CAN-USB lead eons ago which has been perfect for me.

 

Yeah the timing does move around a lot at idle. The ECU will try to maintain idle speed with timing before it will move the throttle as it's less aggressive. The lumpiness will be down to a vac leak I suspect. They can be hard to trace on 24Vs as there are many places unmetered air can leak in. Blowing cigar smoke into the intake is an old favourite. Where there's smoke, there's a leak :D What are you idle and part throttle trims in VCDS? Measuring block 32 IIRC. +1-2% is one happy engine. Greather than +5% could be air leaks or a duff MAF.

 

Have a look at the misfire detection measuring blocks too, although I can't remember what number it is. If it's zero, it thinks everything is rosey.

 

Having had 12V, 2.8 24v, MK4 3.2 and MK5 3.2, none of them have ever been 100% dead smooth at idle. The MK5 one was with my standalone idling at 800rpm though. On ME7, yup, rough idle!

[Fanjita 1]

Chaps, would it help if I made a video of the normal behaviour when going for an engine start? Just to help the troubleshooting others are having to undertake.

 

I'm happy to anyway so let me know. I can do a walkaround of the setup, I think mine's all pretty much spot on now...

 

..apart from two things!

 

Seeing as the guys are in, and I didn't really get any suggestions from before.

 

Problem 1: Still ongoing this, slowing down through 2000 rpm and down to ~1800 rpm in gear there's a distinctive shudder. Feels almost like engine hiccuping or bucking, not excessively violent but enough to get on my t1ts. Absolutely no problems out of this rev range range slowing down or even accelerating. Vince @ Stealth went through some logs I did of when it occurs and said it all checks out fine. He did say that this is the typical rev range at which the injectors start coming back on. Wonder if that's got anything to do with it. Not had the engine mapped yet. Fuel pressure backs up when the injectors switch off or something? Maybe a slight vacuum leak?

 

Problem 2: Maybe related, maybe not. Engine start (from cold), with the bonnet up I can hear a distinctive rattling/rumbling sound. More prominent towards the back, and no difference with the oil cap off. It almost sounds like the throttle body is oscillating or cycling? Only happens on a completely cold start, thinking this isn't related to oil pressure and hydraulic tappets/tensioner. Any other time of day its silent. Not really loud enough to hear with the bonnet down. Brother suggested it's related to the SAI, which of course in mine is blanked off/dummied to a high wattage resistor. Does the SAI fire on the first completely cold start of the car? What could be causing this noise?

I can get a video of this if it helps.

 

James

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Problem 1: Foot completely off the gas or partially on it? Sounds weird. Mine never did that. You could just throw a new MAF (from VW, not a shyte fleabay job) and see if that does the trick. I don't think they're that expensive for MK5s/4s. Check for vac leaks too.

 

Problem 2: That sounds like piston slap perhaps. 12Vs do that as well. What oil are you using. The R32 is known for a bit of little end tapping when cold if you don't use longlife III or a decent 5W/30 like the Shell Helix Ultra. Mine has a similar tap / rattle but only when hot, which Vince has put down to either a lazy lifter or dodgy roller. I think I'll worry about that when I fit some cams :D

SAI runs when it feels like it, which is why I had mine disabled in the maps.

[J.C 10]

Kev, I've got a cheapy ebay item,

I've tracked my problem to a dodgy connection to the ECU,

I'm checking out the best (cheapest) way of getting full VCDS features

[borachris 0]

Well making possible progress at my end :)

 

I wanted to check the ECU wasn't dead, it just so happens a mate of mine is a bit handy with this stuff, he's managed to read the ECU on the bench using an engine loom he hacked up, read it fine with no problems, however he has noticed an internal checksum error!

 

A friendly local mapper, John at Big Fish Tuning, has said this could be causing the ECU to shut down after the first start attempt and effectively become 'dead' for 10-15mims. This ties in with what I am seeing with the throttle body, it beeps and clicks the first time we try to start it, subsequent starts do not yield this beep and click, until it has been left for a while, usually while we stand and scratch our heads or fruitlessly stick the multimeter in random pins hoping for a eureka moment!

 

John has offered to have a look and said he will be able to sort the checksum error and as I've known him for quite some time won't charge me. Going to discuss it with Mark from SWICT tomorrow before going any further.

 

Once again thanks for advice so far everyone

[Kevin Bacon 5]

A checksum error would indeed lock the ECU down! Pretty sloppy work from SWICT that!

 

The ECU checks it's software every time it boots up to make sure it hasn't changed since leaving the factory. People who know what they're doing clear that error before handing it back to the customer!

[borachris 0]

Mark has asked me to send the ECU back so he can test it!

 

In the mean time, I'm not getting any fuel to the rail, even with the pump powered off a battery.

 

Pic stolen from Kev

 

 

I had the feed from the pump going to the centre pipe on the end with 2 pipes, other one on that end is the return to tank. Obviously I had the pipe to the rail on the other end with the arrows on.

 

If that's wrong whoever designed that is stupider than me!

 

But when I took the feed off the filter I can pump fuel straight into a bucket, so I've either got the filter feed and return mixed up or the filter is blocked.

 

The heavens opened and flooded me out before I could remove the filter to inspect it.

 

Try again another day :(

 

EDIT: I suppose my fuel pump could be on its way out and not putting out enough pressure to open the 4 bar fpr?

Edited October 20, 2013 by borachris

[J.C 10]

I know when I connected my fuel lines (to the fuel rail) they naturally connect the wrong way round, the right way round they cross over each other

hope this helps

Edited October 20, 2013 by J.C