Stereo "oomph" advice...

[Jim 2]

Hi folks..

 

In recent months i've embarked on a speaker upgrade / replacement programme that has sort of backfired thanks to a total lack of knowledge relating to all things car stereo. I've changed my dash speakers to a nice pair of Infinity Kappa's (they fit, barely, under the original grilles) and a pair of Lanzar Neo 4x6's in the factory rear speaker positions, replacing a hefty set of 6x9's I had on the parcel shelf before.

 

Problem is now I basically have no bass at all. The 6x9's used to provide a nice bit of bass kick but didn't offer very nice sound quality.. the Neo's sound lovely and sharp but give no bass, and neither do the ones in the front now.. i'm wondering if the power requirements for the speakers are too much for the rather bog standard output of the headunit (the usual 4x50W affair) - I think the Lanzars are 100W RMS and the Kappa's are something similarly high. If I turn up the bass it just can't produce the noise and distorts the sound instead!

 

Where do I go next to get a bit of oomph back into my speakers? I'm really a newb at this so would appreciate some fairly basic info. I'm not bothered about ear splitting bass or volume - i've now got fairly good quality speakers front and back, but just want to compliment those with some bass - its amazing how flat music sounds without any at all!

[steve @ 0]

Problem with the Corrado speakers is there size. I run infinity comps up front with JBL 6x4's in the rear. I suffered the same problem as you. There are two options really the audioscape front door pods which allow for a decent sized speaker or a sub. I went for the latter. I didn't want a big sub and amp taking space and weighing 2 tonnes so went for an 8" Mac audio active sub small compact with the added depth I was looking for.

 

[Blue_Joe 0]

Steve is right

 

The speakers you have gone for are great, however they are not designed to deliver bass. The Neo's are fill in speakers and do the job fantastically. Not sure which kappas you have but are they only mounted in teh dash position or do you have them in the doors aswell ie. components??

 

Really to ever get any bass out of a system you need some sort of subwoofer in the system to deliver it. Even with audioscape doorpods to boost you up to 6.5" you'll still need one in teh system. 6x9's give some bass but are all rounders and are a bit "not great at any of it" but make do when no amp or sub is involved.

 

Unfortunatly Jim your gonna have to bite the bullet at some point and get a sub and amp config of some sort in there!

[dinkus 10]

5.25" is just not big enough to get decent low frequencies out of. Some dynamat or similar in the door will help you keep a tiny bit more bass in, but it's still going to sound limp.

 

The Audioscape door pods do help the cause by adding a bit more low down grunt, but at motorway speeds you really do need a sub. It doesn't have to be huge or make a chavvy booom boooom boooom noise, but you set it up to fill out the bottom end and take over from the front speakers.

 

I've got mine set so that you can't actually tell there's a sub in the car until you turn it off and realise that it's been filling in all the low-down stuff.

 

The Infinity Basslink boxes seem to be the easiest/tidiest all-in-one option, but it will take up a lot of space.

 

The other option is a box with a sub bolted into it, along with a power amp. The Audioscape sub enclosure is nice and tidy, but somewhat pricey, but you can always just go for a normal bass box.

 

You can quite happily bolt the amp to the back of the rear seats, so it won't take up colossal space and TBH even a relatively cheap power amp will more than do the job.

 

Edit: pretty much as Steve and Sam said :)

[A1 VR6 0]

Hi Jim, I only run standard size MB Quart components up front with an Alpine sub with a separate amp for each and I'm well pleased with the sound quality. As was mentioned the rears are only "fill in" and I don't believe you need them if you have a decent sound stage at the front. Another thing is having sufficient power to drive the speakers properly. If I run my MB's off the head unit it just doesn't drive them sufficiently and there is a huge improvement when they run off the amp.

 

HTH and hasn't confused you further :)

[Jim 2]

Great responses guys.. much appreciated! Helps give me a bit of direction here!

 

Not sure which kappas you have but are they only mounted in teh dash position or do you have them in the doors aswell ie. components??

 

There are already some different aftermarket jobbies in the door pods (not sure which brand) but in factory size.. they're not Audioscape pods or anything. The Kappa's I went for are Infinity Kappa 42.7i's (10cm). The difference in sound quality over those tiddly little OEM ones was unbelievable after i'd fitted them!

 

The Infinity Basslink boxes seem to be the easiest/tidiest all-in-one option, but it will take up a lot of space.

 

I had a Basslink in my last Corrado and was thrilled with the performance for the money - didn't find them toooo space hungry either so happy to get one again. I think what I want to know is do I need an amp as WELL as the Basslink? Or as the basslink is already amplified, should the stereo cope with the rest ok? Again - I never absolutely thrash my stereo but do like it sound good at average volumes!

 

If I run my MB's off the head unit it just doesn't drive them sufficiently and there is a huge improvement when they run off the amp.

 

Hm.. my front Kappa's are 50W RMS and I think the Lanzars are something similar! So am I going to need an amp as well as the Basslink then? Its not so much the cost of buying kit (I did buy this Corrado with the intention it would be a real long termer cost / project wise) but just having no idea about car audio wiring! :)

[junkie 0]

I have to agree and disagree with the points of needing a sub.

 

Yes you need a sub to get substantial bass but you dont need a sub to get the bass sound. Low bass is what you feel and mid bass is what you hear, i prefer to hear the kick drums which makes the music have depth, i have taken my 12" sub out.

 

I can play mine on a motorway and still get the bass sound, it does not get drowned out and im running 6.5" Focal K2, 4 years old.

 

But the catch is it is a long and costly way to do it, so if you want the quick bass and cheaply then yes get a 8-10" sub which will not over power you chav style.

 

Its costly as i have done the following:-

 

Nakamichi front end

Phoenix gold line driver

Phoenix gold 215eq

phoenix gold 1000/2 amp

Focal K2

Audioscape pods

x1 dynamat extreme bulk kit split between both front doors

[Jim 2]

Heh.. I think your setup is a bit more pro than I can afford to go!

 

I obviously don't want chav bass.. just a bit of warmth to the music. A proper setup like yours would be desirable, but ultimately the car has mechanical bits that need attention far more than the stereo gear, so i'm looking for good bang for buck :)

[Yandards 0]

The old bass link is a good option and the amp is built into the bass link setup, IIRC it also has some amp out points for other stuff too.

 

But, after chatting to a guy up here who is into his audio, a way to get better low end without the vibration from door speakers is to knock up a mdf space ring to sit between the door card and the speaker, then seal the speaker to the mdf ring. This ensures the noise goes out from the speaker and not comes from around the back of it creating distortion, apparantly.

 

You can get mid/low range 5.25" door speakers but as for how much 'punch' they provide and if that is enough is entirely down to personal preference.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I think the Lanzars are 100W RMS and the Kappa's are something similarly high. If I turn up the bass it just can't produce the noise and distorts the sound instead!

 

100W RMS :lol: That is absolute Bollocks Jim, don't believe a word of its. Silly little 6 x 4s and round 4s will be closer to 10W RMS in reality.

That's why they distort, too small and too crap.

 

The Corrado is an old, unrefined car.....you need lots of amp grunt and speaker surface area to get the sound you want.....or a much newer car with better sound insulation and powerful stereos as standard.

 

I've been through all this a squillion times before but nobody ever listens!

[Blue_Joe 0]

I think the Lanzars are 100W RMS and the Kappa's are something similarly high. If I turn up the bass it just can't produce the noise and distorts the sound instead!

 

100W RMS :lol: That is absolute Bollocks Jim, don't believe a word of its. Silly little 6 x 4s and round 4s will be closer to 10W RMS in reality.

That's why they distort, too small and too crap.

 

Actually Kev - Your talking crap now!

 

The 6x4 Lanzar Neos are my old speakers and they ARE 100W RMS. However you have to look at what they are designed for - and that is NOT creating bass. They are fill in speakers and are designed exactly that way. If you ran full low pass bass through them at high power no they wouldnt handle it. But run through the power they are designed to take and the type of sound they are ddesigned to take and they will run beautifully. They produced stunning sound in my car. Well worth the large amount of money I paid for them. I don't care what anyone says about you wanting the soundstage up front and the bass from the rear. I had that setup in mine for a while and wasn't happy - something was missing. That was running the Focal Polyglasses up front and an Infinty Perfect 12 in the back all in audioscape setups. However on advice I fitted these in the rear and it just filled teh gap perfectly.

 

However as I said at the top. They are designed with a specific purpose in mind and they do it perfectly. And YES they cope with the power VERY well!

[junkie 0]

Its all about getting it set up right, sometimes you need a rear fill in, i felt like i did in mine, was not happy with the sound then took the sub out and its loads better.

 

I have listened to plenty of cars only running front end and sub that were perfect, so its not always required to have rear fill in, you just need to match all your components well, like a big turbo wont work well with a pea shooter exhaust.

 

In sound quality competitions the best sounding 1's will sonund as though the low bass is coming from the end of the bonnet.

[dr_mat 0]

Park in the living room and list to your hifi. With the windows down.

[Yandards 0]

Park in the living room and list to your hifi. With the windows down.

 

But my living room hifi is crap, what would you recommend?

[Toad 0]

Park in the living room and list to your hifi. With the windows down.

 

But my living room hifi is crap, what would you recommend?

 

I would look to employ the services of right said fred, who could sit in your car singing such hits as I'm too sexy and Deeply dippy.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Actually Kev - Your talking crap now!

 

Predictable.....

 

The 6x4 Lanzar Neos are my old speakers and they ARE 100W RMS.

 

You reckon? :lol: Put 100W RMS through them at their lowest quoted handling frequency, 80hz, and you will fry the voicecoil instantly. And 220W peak? PMSL.... :lol:

Depending on Amp dynamic headroom, the most you'll get as a peak sine wave before clipping from 100W RMS is 141W and if those things can handle that, I'll wee on my pants and then eat them.

 

However you have to look at what they are designed for - and that is NOT creating bass.

 

So what is 80hz if it's not bass?

 

They are fill in speakers and are designed exactly that way.

 

Are they? Doesn't say that in the advertising information.

 

If you ran full low pass bass through them at high power no they wouldnt handle it.

 

No schitt sherlock.

 

They produced stunning sound in my car.

 

yeah I'm sure they did... in your opinion.

 

Well worth the large amount of money I paid for them.

 

What, 90 quid?

 

I don't care what anyone says about you wanting the soundstage up front and the bass from the rear

I had that setup in mine for a while and wasn't happy - something was missing. That was running the Focal Polyglasses up front and an Infinty Perfect 12 in the back all in audioscape setups. However on advice I fitted these in the rear and it just filled teh gap perfectly.

 

Fair enough, each to our own!

 

However as I said at the top. They are designed with a specific purpose in mind and they do it perfectly. And YES they cope with the power VERY well!

 

OK, thanks for the advice. Next time I buy rear 'fill' speakers, I'll make sure it mentions about not putting any bass frequencies through them.

[Jim 2]

Er - ok.

 

I appreciate £100 speakers might not seem like a lot to you Kev, but then as was stated in the original post i'm not an audiophile, nor do I have the cash to throw round on Audioscape grade kit - frankly I don't have that kind of disposable at my disposal! To me £100 4x6 speakers are higher grade than I would ever normally have gone!

 

I just want bang for buck, and in the case of the Lanzars I knew they were £100 new and Sam only wanted half that.. I wanted to be able to stick a set of speakers in the factory position (so that I could put in the nice, uncut parcel shelf I picked up a few months back) and know that they would fit (which they do) and would be pretty as good as they got within my price range. They do sound lovely and crisp - absolutely no doubting that and I think if (when!!) I get a sub of some sort back there, i'll be in business :)

[Blue_Joe 0]

Actually Kev - Your talking crap now!

 

Predictable.....

 

The 6x4 Lanzar Neos are my old speakers and they ARE 100W RMS.

 

You reckon? :lol: Put 100W RMS through them at their lowest quoted handling frequency, 80hz, and you will fry the voicecoil instantly. And 220W peak? PMSL.... :lol:

Depending on Amp dynamic headroom, the most you'll get as a peak sine wave before clipping from 100W RMS is 141W and if those things can handle that, I'll wee on my pants and then eat them.

 

However you have to look at what they are designed for - and that is NOT creating bass.

 

So what is 80hz if it's not bass?

 

They are fill in speakers and are designed exactly that way.

 

 

Are they? Doesn't say that in the advertising information.

 

If you ran full low pass bass through them at high power no they wouldnt handle it.

 

No schitt sherlock.

 

They produced stunning sound in my car.

 

yeah I'm sure they did... in your opinion.

 

Well worth the large amount of money I paid for them.

 

What, 90 quid?

 

I don't care what anyone says about you wanting the soundstage up front and the bass from the rear

I had that setup in mine for a while and wasn't happy - something was missing. That was running the Focal Polyglasses up front and an Infinty Perfect 12 in the back all in audioscape setups. However on advice I fitted these in the rear and it just filled teh gap perfectly.

 

Fair enough, each to our own!

 

However as I said at the top. They are designed with a specific purpose in mind and they do it perfectly. And YES they cope with the power VERY well!

 

OK, thanks for the advice. Next time I buy rear 'fill' speakers, I'll make sure it mentions about not putting any bass frequencies through them.[/quote:42cf0]

 

 

Sorry I forgot - Kev is as always the oracle of all things that are everything! ........................................

 

My Arse!

 

It doesn't have to say it on the box for you to understand where are best to use it. Would you really expect to achieve what you are saying out of that product??

 

No but use it sensibly and set it up correctly and it doesn't take a genius that you obviously try and make yourself out to be!

[dr_mat 0]

Don't know anything about car audio, but if you put 100W into a speaker rated at 100W and it blows up, I'd take it straight back and get my money back. Of course, you'd have to have calibrated meter readings to prove it ..

Anyway, even "very loud" for most music programs is only about 5-10W on average, giving 90+ dbA at 1M from the speaker with an average speaker.

And from a hifi point of view, it's clear that the key to good sound from speakers is a good enclosure. The speaker cone itself is *almost* irrelevant. Put a high quality driver in a poor enclosure and it will boom, resonate, and sound awful.

 

It is also true to say that the "peak power" ratings on some speakers can be truly comedic. 220 / 100 is quite a ratio, but perhaps it *can* sustain it for short periods of time. The limits of a speaker come from two things: the physical range of movement of the cone and the ability to dissipate heat. It may well be that the speaker can handle 220W's worth of physical cone displacement, but it can only handle 100W of heat energy. I'll bet the cone goes seriously non-linear in those circumstances because the heat build up will be *very* fast, but perhaps that's how they get the rating together.

Does it mean anything in the real world? Not really. Take the RMS figure, and stay 20% lower than that and you'll be safe (and most importantly it'll probably sound ok).

[Supercharged 2]

Mee-owwww...

[junkie 0]

Ideally you want more power than the speaker is rated at, this gives you head room to work with.

 

If a speaker can handle say 100w rms then give it 100w rms, not sure what the Focal K2's (not to be confused with the K2P's) are rated to but im running them with the Phoenix Gold 1000/2 amp, thats 1000 Phoenix Gold watts. Now this could sound way too much but when the EQ gets played around with for every 3db gain, it takes twice the power at that frequency so this is why you need the head room and more power in the amp. Been running this way for around 2 years with no blown voice coils and used hard all the time.

[Jim 2]

Looking round at amps its a real mindfield if you don't know what you're looking at. So, Kev and Sam's spat aside..

 

My kappas up front are:

 

50W/RMS

150W Peak

4?

 

The Lanzar Neo's are:

 

110 Watt/RMS,

220 Watt Peak,

4?

 

What sort of amp should I be looking for? Two channel? Multichannel? As junkie says I ideally need something that can match my max RMS (be it theoretical or not!). If I was to get an amp would it be worth not getting an active sub like the Basslink and just buy a normal sub instead and drive it from the amp or would I be needing to spend a lot on an amp to drive all of that lot?

 

Ta :)

[junkie 0]

How much you looking to spend?

 

If it were me i would drive your front end off an amp as thats where you sit, the rear speakers from the front end head unit and then a sub from an amp, either a 2 amp system or single 4 way.

 

If your interested i have JL Audio amps for sale and a JL 12"sub with box and some cabling, pretty much all you need to get a full system including using your own.

[Jim 2]

Not in a position to buy jack at the moment.. gotta sort some new coilies out on my car as I think they're shagged, and staying on the road in a straight line is a bit more of a priority than having good tunes! :)

 

I don't know what I need to spend as I don't know what the going rates are for amps! Ugh.. its confusing as hell!

[junkie 0]

Well there is no price you should spend but you do get what you pay for.

 

Agreed it is a minefield, best bet is to stick to well known and reputable brands.