KR 16v not starting (done search) LONG POST

[boost monkey 0]

Hi guys,

 

just looking for a list of things to check here, or maybe some "if this is working, but that isn't, try this..." kind of things on the Burdundy.,

 

Basically went up and sat on Russed16v's drive for about 6 hours yesterday, trying to get the thing to go. I think it started 3 times all afternoon. I'll categorise the results:

 

ISV not working

 

Basically, the ISV wouldn't buzz on ignition-circuit so we took it off and soaked in carb cleaner. After that, the best it would do was a single *click* opening on the 16v loom. ProdigalSon drove me up there so we plugged the ISV into his G60 loom and it would click on and off very slowly... it did not buzz like I thought it should (possible mis-match of test by using 16v isv on g60 loom?)

 

Did manage to get it started by taking the ISV out and holding the 2 vac pipes (one to the air intake, and one to the cold start injector) together at a few millimetres apart. This meant it would idle at 3000rpm and was overfuelling a lot, burping out of the exhaust and some white smoke (smelt like petrol). Would not hold it's own idle even after running up to 80deg and radiator fan kicked in. Also very reluctant to restart on turning key.

 

Wiring problem

 

Possible issues with wiring too, a few unknown connectors floating around underneath the ISV, WUR and cold start injector. Not sure if they are supposed to be plugged in (see other post for details)

 

Cold start injector

 

not sure if this was working, although it was getting fuel through the banjo hose, so we soaked it in cleaner just to be safe and reconnected it all. Didn't seem to make a difference to running with it connected or disconnected.

 

Warm Up Reg

 

Took a known good one up with me, but didn't get to swapping it over mainly because we weren't sure if it was that or something else. How does a knackered WUR make itself known?

 

Very weak spark

 

took a plug out when starter was cranking and connected it up outside of engine. Very weak spark. Checked earth by Distributor, earth on ignition coil and earth by battery via a multi-meter continuity test. All found to be poor, so wire-brushes all three and reattached all leads with cooper grease and tightened up. Battery very happy to crank starter all afternoon, so don't think it was low on charge.

 

Timing issue?

 

not sure whether the timing is out, as we didn't have a strobe with us, plus Russ said that the car would only attempt to start in the position that the dizzy was currently in. Cambelt done recently, but sounds like it's worth a check?

 

Ignition Switch

 

will pick up a new VAG one and take it up when we return, hopefully for the last time! :)

 

Points to note:

 

Car was very low on petrol and parked on a slope. Pushed car down onto flat ground, and managed to start and idle at 3000rpm again, but exactly same symptoms as before.

 

Parts to take back with me:

 

New HT leads and plugs(?),

known good ISV,

good wiring diagram,

new VAG ignition switch,

3.5mm allen key (to check CO pot, or is this pointless without a gas analyser?)

known good cold start valve,

known good ignition amp,

strobe gun.

 

Apart from getting a couple of gallons in her, can anyone think of something I may have missed?

[steveo29 0]

id get all the random loose wires hooked up and see where its at then

 

a wur controls the fuel pressure from cold...kinda like its choke , as the pressure changes so does the mixture.

[boost monkey 0]

Cheers steve, yeah getting a good wiring diagram is Plan A!

 

I'm gonna go back up and try to change things one by one and see what's working and what is not.

[steveo29 0]

can you post some pics of the spare wires? i might know where they go

[boost monkey 0]

Afraid not, I'm 100 miles from the car.

 

I'll try to find some engine bay pics although I have pulled up nothing so far.

[steveo29 0]

well lets see

 

theres 3 sensors on the dizzy end of the head...all single spades and can go on any of those sensors

 

3 wire plug to dizzy

 

plug to thermo time (unknow amount of wires) under dizzy area

 

oil sensor on back of head..single spade

 

5th inj...that has a blue plug

 

wur ...2 wire plug (might be grey ?) but mines been mullered

 

isv 2 wire (black i think?)

 

only others i can think of around that area would be reverse switch wiring

[flusted 0]

theres 2 wires that connect to temp senders, 1 for ecu and 1 for isv

[n3p 3]

got some fill wiring diagrams somewhere, will scan them in once i find them :)

[boost monkey 0]

well lets see

 

theres 3 sensors on the dizzy end of the head...all single spades and can go on any of those sensors

 

3 wire plug to dizzy

 

plug to thermo time (unknow amount of wires) under dizzy area

 

oil sensor on back of head..single spade

 

5th inj...that has a blue plug

 

wur ...2 wire plug (might be grey ?) but mines been mullered

 

isv 2 wire (black i think?)

 

only others i can think of around that area would be reverse switch wiring

 

not found many single spades plugged in so that could be something...

 

yeah the 5th inj has a blue plug, and the WUR has a white one. Those are both connected up - not sure if the WUR works though as mentioned :?

 

yeah the isv is black i'm pretty sure, and i def know which one that is! :lol:

 

good memory by the way! :shock: 8)

[boost monkey 0]

theres 2 wires that connect to temp senders, 1 for ecu and 1 for isv

 

cheers flusted, do you know which ones these are at all?

[boost monkey 0]

got some fill wiring diagrams somewhere, will scan them in once i find them :)

 

ace :thumb right: beer tokens in the post!

[Yandards 0]

Car will run badly with ISV removed, it is suppossed to be a variable restricion to airflow but by removing it this explains the high revs (poor running is a different issue)

 

WUR. This is simply a bi-metallic strip with a needle valve and spring assembly at one end and a heater element at the other. When the engine is cold the bimetallic strip presses against the spring and the needle moves away from the fuel flow allowing more fuel flow during cold starting. After the engine has run for a period of time the heating element will have warmed the bimetallic strip therefore shutting off the extra fuel flow. A knackered WUR will only result in poor starting performance though.

 

Thermotime Switch. There are 2 of these as Flusted previously mentioned, 1 to the ISV and 1 to the ECU, these again depend on bimetallic strips. Below 35 C the contacts are closed and they actuate the cold start valve to provide extra fuel, this also turns a heating element on within the thermotime switch/couple. Above 35 C the contacts are opended therefore switching off the cold start valve and the heating element. The thermotimes remain warm as they are located in the water channels in the cylinder head just in front off (when looking at side of head from front of car) the water outlet connection.

 

I would say that it is worth checking the following:

 

HT leads are in the correct sequence: 1 - 3 -4 -2.

 

Engine earth straps are in good condtion throughout (Critical to a good and smooth running J-Jet.)

 

The idle stab valve should have the following resistance value with connector removed 3.5 - 4.5 Ohms.

 

Ensure you have no leaks in all the hoses, see pic of hose connections for vacuum below.

 

Correct connection of thermotime couples and temp sensor for ECU. Blue and white single pin wire goes to temp sensor behind the water outlet on cylinder head.

 

Please find attached some useful pics..

[boost monkey 0]

Those pictures are amazing, cheers for the help!

 

Gotta run off to Materials lecture now :(

[boost monkey 0]

Also, if a knackered WUR will result in poor starting, well, it could indeed be knackered as it definitely is poor at starting.

[Yandards 0]

Also, if a knackered WUR will result in poor starting, well, it could indeed be knackered as it definitely is poor at starting.

 

Yes but you also have poor running above the point where the WUR is no longer having any effect.

[Walesy 0]

Nice post there Yan 8)

 

Allthough most of it went straight over my head :lol:

[boost monkey 0]

Also, if a knackered WUR will result in poor starting, well, it could indeed be knackered as it definitely is poor at starting.

 

Yes but you also have poor running above the point where the WUR is no longer having any effect.

 

Ah ok, so because the starting / idling system isn't working then the WUR is kind of obsolete in the troubleshooting side of things?

 

If so, then that's kinda good cos I felt a bit stupid taking up a spare WUR and never trying it out.

[Yandards 0]

Also, if a knackered WUR will result in poor starting, well, it could indeed be knackered as it definitely is poor at starting.

 

Yes but you also have poor running above the point where the WUR is no longer having any effect.

 

Ah ok, so because the starting / idling system isn't working then the WUR is kind of obsolete in the troubleshooting side of things?

 

If so, then that's kinda good cos I felt a bit stupid taking up a spare WUR and never trying it out.[/quote:11t61x4s]

 

The WUR is just that, a Warm Up Regulator, it will only provide increased fueling for a set period depending on the temperature of the engine (Dont have the figures to hand ATM) Think of it as a finer tunning version of the 5th injector - the 5th injector dumps much larger loads of fuel in for a short period after and during start-up. Thw WUR by comparison runs for a lot longer and adds less fuel.

 

Your original post said that the car was still idling badly when it was fully warm (80 C +) at that point the WUR is no longer adding extra fuel so it is safe to say that if the WUR is broken then there is another larger issue. A fault with the WUR is only likely to manifest at start-up/warm up and can be overcome with a little throttle application when cranking to get the extra fuel in.

 

Cheers Walesy, keep meaning to get some wikis written up with all this crud in - would take far less time in the long run as I have to scan in lots of pages and then do the component write up and test. But it would take bloody ages :(

[Valerian 0]

I take it you have checked the mechanical timing of the engine?

[boost monkey 0]

No, i'm afraid not...

 

From original post:

 

 

Timing issue?

 

not sure whether the timing is out, as we didn't have a strobe with us, plus Russ said that the car would only attempt to start in the position that the dizzy was currently in. Cambelt done recently, but sounds like it's worth a check?

[dirtytorque 0]

you can check the cam to head timing though mate. :)

[boost monkey 0]

*waits for the procedure*

 

Edit: I thought the cams were timed together with a small chain anyways. Surely this wouldn't be out...? :?

[dirtytorque 0]

*waits for the procedure*

 

Edit: I thought the cams were timed together with a small chain anyways. Surely this wouldn't be out...? :?

 

I'm talking about head to cam timing.Not cam to cam timing.

shouldn't take u long.

I've only done it on a raw block on a valver i.e head emoved from engine so its easy to set each component to tdc.I'm sure someone will be along to tell you which pulleys or engine faces have what timing marks on them for reference.

[boost monkey 0]

Aaah ok cool.

 

It does seem like there's a ton of stuff that it could be at the mo. I think when we go up next time if we can't get it running we will tow it back just to save trips!

[Valerian 0]

right....mechanical timing.

 

Take out number one spark plug.

Put a stick down the hole.

Turn the engine using a spanner or socket on the centre Crankshaft pulley bolt.

Line up the Crank Pully and Cam pulley to each of their TDC marks.

While doing so check that the stick rises to it's highest point when the crank and cam timing marks are aligned.

Also check that the rotor in the distributor is pointing to the no.1 ignition mark on the dizzy body.