First Irocco R.I.P. already!

[Tempest 0]

See here, as seen in Germany at a VW dealership:

 

Tempest

[jazzdevil 0]

i quite like that new, lower front end... but the tilted headlamps remind me of the current Peugeot crop :)

[vwdeviant 0]

i quite like that new, lower front end... but the tilted headlamps remind me of the current Peugeot crop :)

 

Get out my head!

 

Doesn't look to bad in that fuzzy focus pic!

[corrado_sunderland 0]

See here, as seen in Germany at a VW dealership:

 

Tempest

 

 

best lookin one if seen yet :D

[bcstudent 0]

That's far from resting in peace; it's just a flesh-wound.

[Adz The Rat 0]

Looks like it has smashed an alloy so possible suspension damage also?

 

Rip the engine out and put it in a MK1 Rocco

[Tempest 0]

Rip the engine out and put it in a MK1 Rocco

 

Far too much electornic gubbins necessary to get that engine to run. Immobiliser, ECU, sensors, WTF do you need all that for? It

[Jim 2]

Far too much electornic gubbins necessary to get that engine to run. Immobiliser, ECU, sensors, WTF do you need all that for?

 

Performance, fuel efficiency, engine refinement, driveability, security.. want me to go on?

[Tempest 0]

Performance, fuel efficiency, engine refinement, driveability, security.. want me to go on?

 

Read the article copmparing the Mk1 racer to the new N

[chubbybrown 0]

That Rocco looks like someone has tried to reshape it with an Elephant!

 

[Jim 2]

Eric - you're a great guy, but your view on things like this so blinkered at times, it makes me want to just go and jump out of the nearest window!! :) Still, it helps keep these little technology debates interesting I suppose!

 

Clarksons's review in the Times was overwhelmingly positive on the new Scirocco, as were his memories of the original (well, the MK1 at least!). The only point he makes about the performance in the article is the 0-60 time. A no brainer given that the original Scirocco has infinately shorter gearing and weighs about 50% less than the new one. The new Scirocco will surge onto 140MPH which somehow I doubt the old one will, and in-gear acceleration (which has practical, real world application) is also far superior. Fuel economy, etc are not touched upon though...

 

Then there is still that old chestnut of mine, that I derive pleasure of ownsership to about 50% out of being able to do my own jobs on cars

 

Most people who buy cars don't want to do work on them. They just want to drive them, wash them occasionally, and take them for a yearly service. Car manufacturers make the cars for the majority market share so it's inevitable that enthusiasts will be made to suffer in that respect. Besides, I don't see what fancy diagnostic equipment you need beyond VAG-COM which you'd need even on a Corrado VR6 to resolve plenty of issues...

[vwdeviant 0]

Jim.... inbuilt life-span? This is the reason you see very few "modern classics" ie sub-15 yrs old... and why there are still so many Air-cooled/Mk1-2 golfs about... Simple mechanics...

 

Once spoke to teh guy who designed the Austin "Land-crab" and they designed a 10yr lifespan into it, hence there's a U shaped channel on the inner wing, that traps mud... rust out the inners and volia! You have to buy a new car! Added to the Monkey metal they used in the 70's...

 

These days they can't get round that so they use electronics which become obsolete in a few years after the build stopped (Think VAG are currently stopping spares production after 5 yrs) meaning it's often more econimically viable to buy a new car... than a new engine ECU...

 

Cynical but true I'm afraid! It's don't we have fuel-cells yet when the technology's been available for decades?

 

But yeah the points you make do also have somthing to do with it as well!

[Tempest 0]

Jim, big fan of technology that you seem to be (so am I, but as an engineer I always question the usefulness of many a product that appears on the market, and sometimes it makes me cringe to see that something becomes highly successful despite it technologically being utter rubbish or totally useless, or there being far better products around, but thanks to clever marketing the money-spending masses fall into the designed trap of buying a technically inferior product that often has just been designed for whatever incredible reason), but don't foget technological progress is not just good for progress' sake. there's got to be a reason, which brings us back to the key issue:

 

For me an enthusiast car does NOT need all current modern technology to give me the pleasure that I seek in such a vehicle and indeed also derive from my current 3 cars (they handle brilliantly, they drive well, they are easy to maintain, DIY on, to name a few).

 

As far as a daily hack is concenred, yes, I do agree that some of the recent inventions may be useful, but then we are talking a totally different kettle of fish. My current cars are fun cars, not daily hacks. A daily hack has to meet totally different criteria for me (cheap to buy, cheap to run, ideally should cost nothing :lol:, because it's an undesired expense in life, which is why I'm quite fortuous in that I do not need such a money-pit) than fun cars. I also want my fun cars to last, i.e. that I can still get parts or even make them myself, which up to now has been possible (with a bit of creativity), but that won't be the case with tyhose shedloads of electronics in modern cars, where more and more often the ECU will or is already encrypted. Yes, you may, no doubt, break the code (I personally would debate that, since the code is unlike PC stuff heavily proprietary, and unless someone leaks out the code, impossible to break - ECUs are, however, not quite as desirable to break as for example a Sky or other pay-tv box, so it's unlikely that ECUs will attract as much attention and effort by the population as Sky or pay-tv boxes), but that probably will require special tools and software etc., making the whole thing more of a chore than a pleasure. It's a nuisance already now if you wanted to fit a TFSI engine to a Mk1 Rocco, because you need to get round the immobiliser code in the blasted ECU! That's may be fine to combat car theft, but for enthusiasts it's a pain in the neck. Remember that we are talking enthusiast cars here, not daily hacks, where even I wouldn't care about this issue.

 

Another problem I have with all this electronics is that it makes driving sports cars too easy for any person that can't actually drive very well. Example: The comments in the article comparing the old Mk1 racer to the new Irocco racer were that in the old one you needed to work, neeed to put effort into driving the car. With the new one the electronics take a large part of that fun factor away. Any old idiot can now drive a sports car, to put it bluntly. I personally think that that's wrong.

 

Furthermore a lot of the modern electronics are used to mask rubbish mechanicals. The Mk1 Golf and Rocco handled extremely well (not just in their days, but even today) without a single bit of electronics, something modern cars just can't do any more without all sorts of controllers, all of which will go wrong over time (with increasing system complexity, the more can and will go wrong, first axiom for each self-respecting engineer, hence KISS should be the golden rule in any good design).

 

Anyway, it seems to pretty much boil down to the differences between expectations for a daily and a funcar:

 

Most people who buy cars don't want to do work on them. They just want to drive them, wash them occasionally, and take them for a yearly service.

 

Definitely not me, at least not for me as an enthusiast.

 

Car manufacturers make the cars for the majority market share so it's inevitable that enthusiasts will be made to suffer in that respect.

 

Indeed, but there is quite a capital-rich enthusiast niche market out there, that some companies do manage to cater for. VW won't and don't as a producer for the masses.

 

Besides, I don't see what fancy diagnostic equipment you need beyond VAG-COM which you'd need even on a Corrado VR6 to resolve plenty of issues...

 

One of the reasons why I'm already a little skeptical about the VR6 engine, but at least its electronics are still reasonably manageable. Even so, not all faults will be revealed by VAG-com, you still need to have a basic understanding of how an engine works (something a lot of modern garages now lack), and once you've got that then actually something like ECUs and Vag-com just get in the way, make things more complicated than absolutely necessary. Mind you, I don't think new cars will have as "simple" ECUs and electonics any more as the VR6. Can-bus and all that sh*t, miles of cabling inside each car these days make life a nightmare even for a well-versed electrical engineer! Heck, that's why according to a recent ADAC survey the majority of problems with modern cars (breakdown reasons) is actually due to on-board electronic systems failing!

 

Read and understand my lengthy post completely, folks, before answering, as you will spot answers to your potential counter arguments in there somwehere :lol:

 

Tempest

[Yandards 0]

Blimey a simple post about a smashed up car turns into a 'state of the current car industry' argument.

 

Handbags anyone ? :)

[Goldie 2]

Seems a bit silly to me...

 

They arent going to go away either, ones will be crashed and theyll just make more..

 

Im just suprised that someone as Studios as Eric, who has two of the cars still cant spell Scirocco.. :) :)

[dr_mat 0]

I can see both sides of this coin tbh. The cars are becoming more complex, true, and it takes away some of the "skill", true, and it takes away some of the fun, true, but it makes them safer and more reliable in the medium term.

 

I also disagree that it will get away from us completely. The car industry is regulated to some degree by a requirement to have open engine management interfaces for third party tool interactions, and there are laws in place that require a car company to have spare parts available for at least 10 years from the end of final production. Those are the same laws that have been in place for the last 20-30 years. The fact VW will still sell you OE beetle bits is purely a courtesy and they could stop at any time.

 

The whole idea of built-in obsolescence is not really right either, these days. Cars are SO much more heavily engineered now, that 10 year old cars are rarely rusty at all, unless seriously abused. I'm not OLD old and I can remember when 10 year old cars were routinely having sills welded up or wings replaced. The fact that you "still see old Mk1s about" is more a testament to the owners than the reliability of the cars - the vast majority of mk1s and mk2s have been written off or scrapped. You also see lots and lots of mk3s about, and they were shit cars. They're 10+ years old.

 

The car industry is somewhat doing itself out of a future. They've pushed the engineering to the point where anytime there's a credit squeeze or the petrol prices go up a smidge, their customers will simply stop coming - they'll just keep what they have for another couple of years. It won't get any less reliable, it'll just mean they start having to get MOTs done.. They did this to themselves..

 

Now, home electronics (VCRs, TVs, microwaves, etc etc) they HAVE got seriously lightweight and basically just a bit shite in the past decade or two. And that's the consumer's fault - we kept buying their shit because it was cheap, and ignored the fact that it wouldn't last more than five minutes after the warranty ran out...

 

Anyway, my 2p.

[vwdeviant 0]

Now, home electronics (VCRs, TVs, microwaves, etc etc) they HAVE got seriously lightweight and basically just a bit **** in the past decade or two. And that's the consumer's fault - we kept buying their **** because it was cheap, and ignored the fact that it wouldn't last more than five minutes after the warranty ran out...

 

Anyway, my 2p.

:offtopic:

 

True, my Sony in-car 10-disc's 15yr's old, done service in 6 cars and is still going (fairly) stong...

 

Problem is with home electronics is that there have been such quick technology advances that it's hardly worth making stuff to last...

 

Anyway back to the normal IROC service!

[Jim 2]

Anyway back to the normal IROC service!

 

You spell it Scirocco.

 

;)

[Yandards 0]

Now, home electronics (VCRs, TVs, microwaves, etc etc) they HAVE got seriously lightweight and basically just a bit **** in the past decade or two. And that's the consumer's fault - we kept buying their **** because it was cheap, and ignored the fact that it wouldn't last more than five minutes after the warranty ran out...

 

Anyway, my 2p.

:offtopic:

 

True, my Sony in-car 10-disc's 15yr's old, done service in 6 cars and is still going (fairly) stong...

 

Problem is with home electronics is that there have been such quick technology advances that it's hardly worth making stuff to last...

 

:offtopic:

 

Very true, although some new technology advances are never really going to cut it, Bluray is just not selling at all right now because unlike the VCR/Laserdisc jump to DVD most general consumers are not that bothered about the image quality difference especially with upscalling DVD players.

 

The more electronics you add to a car the more remote the driver becomes, yes it might make it easier but at the same time it also makes the driving experience less involving ergo less rewarding. The problem is that the general consumer that the mass car manufacturers only want an appliance that is reliable to go from A to B.

[Toad 0]

Im just suprised that someone as Studios as Eric, who has two of the cars still cant spell Scirocco.. :) :)

 

Anyway back to the normal IROC service!

 

You spell it Scirocco.

 

;)

 

There's a badge on the back saying it and everything! :lol:

[Sonicriot13 0]

Anyway back to the normal IROC service!

 

You spell it Scirocco.

 

;)

 

There's a badge on the back saying it and everything! :lol:

 

Actually it's spelt Mk3 Scirocco.... :wink: :lol: There should be a badge for that. So that there can be no doubt! :D

[Toad 0]

Schitty irrocco is the mk4 isn't it?

[Sonicriot13 0]

Schitty irrocco is the mk4 isn't it?

 

Mk3 surely? I might be wrong though. But the mk1 was the one with the round lights, then the mk2 was the badly cut block of cheese right? So this must be the mk3???

[Toad 0]

The Mk3 came with Scirroco seriously misspelt on the back, starting with C, and ending in lots of garage bills.

[Sonicriot13 0]

The Mk3 came with Scirroco seriously misspelt on the back, starting with C, and ending in lots of garage bills.

 

:lol: Oh, well if you look at it like that. I don't count the Corrado as a Scirocco because they ran the two models side by side for a while. Oh yeah, and they have completely different names! :lol: