My final attempt to make a working car! 3.2 24v Rado

[borachris 0]

Starting to come together mate, just remember to start mapping out the space needed for FI next year!!

 

Hahaha FI might come sooner than planned lol

 

Currently hatching a plan for a pikey rear mounted turbo 3.2, think turbo instead of rear silencer and you might get the idea.... GT35....

 

Loom should be back very soon ;)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Steak knife, lol :D

 

I read somewhere that it's best to freeze a poly mount over night before hacksawing it.

 

Nice idea on the rear turbo. Thought about that myself a few times to send a nice and gentle 8psi up to the front without cocking about with spacers and things. This company have been doing rear turbos for a while now - http://ststurbo.com/ The exhaust note is epic with the turbine so close to the tailpipe!

[borachris 0]

Steak knife, lol :D

 

I read somewhere that it's best to freeze a poly mount over night before hacksawing it.

 

Nice idea on the rear turbo. Thought about that myself a few times to send a nice and gentle 8psi up to the front without cocking about with spacers and things. This company have been doing rear turbos for a while now - http://ststurbo.com/ The exhaust note is epic with the turbine so close to the tailpipe!

 

Yeah luckily i didn't have to resort to the steak knife lol, I think the freezer trick would have helped, it wasn't hard to cut but the flex did make it a little difficult to get a good finish.

 

I don't see why more people haven't gone down the rear mounted route tbh, its a very rare thing in the VW world, the yanks seem to make good use of them though.

 

Plan is to do it as cheap as possible, keeping the OE injectors, then if it works and i'm happy with it, swap out bits for better quality components.

 

Don't cringe too much but i'm leaning towards a chinese GT35, reviews seem to have improved in recent months and it would appear that they are not as bad as they used to be, I don't fancy spending £1200 on a proper Garrett only to find that its a **** idea once its all running lol

 

Although i've been looking for other options such as holsets but I need to read up on them a bit more tbh, i've never owned or modified a petrol turbo car before so my experience/knowledge isn't great yet lol

 

Thanks for the link I'll have a read!

[lilfuzzer 1]

Flying buddy glad its coming together

[borachris 0]

Flying buddy glad its coming together

 

Cheers mate, would have had it running by now if it wasn't for the hold up with the loom :(

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah luckily i didn't have to resort to the steak knife lol, I think the freezer trick would have helped, it wasn't hard to cut but the flex did make it a little difficult to get a good finish.

 

I don't see why more people haven't gone down the rear mounted route tbh, its a very rare thing in the VW world, the yanks seem to make good use of them though.

 

Plan is to do it as cheap as possible, keeping the OE injectors, then if it works and i'm happy with it, swap out bits for better quality components.

 

Don't cringe too much but i'm leaning towards a chinese GT35, reviews seem to have improved in recent months and it would appear that they are not as bad as they used to be, I don't fancy spending £1200 on a proper Garrett only to find that its a **** idea once its all running lol

 

Although i've been looking for other options such as holsets but I need to read up on them a bit more tbh, i've never owned or modified a petrol turbo car before so my experience/knowledge isn't great yet lol

 

Thanks for the link I'll have a read!

 

I think the freezing just stops the poly melting and clogging the blade up but if it cuts OK at room temp, even better!

 

I just think people have pre-conceptions about rear turbos. Chief among them being lag because of the pipework length. Plus the other thing that's a bit of hassle is having to use an electric scavenger pump for the oil drain.

I remember speaking to Julian at BalanceMotorsport about it a good 4 or 5 years ago now. He tried it on his Pug 205. He said it was no laggier than a normal turbo setup, which is good news as that's a little 4 pot. We have socking great 3.2 litre lumps, so tonnes more exhaust gas to spin it up with.

 

I'm thinking a GT30 size might work better for a mild boost setup and I was also thinking of using a ceramic bearing turbo, so no need to worry about oil feeds and drains. TBH, a cheap old Chinese job is perfect for an experiment like this!

 

I'm sure I've read the stock injectors are good for 320hp, maybe 350hp if you use a 5 bar regulator. That's why I would be aiming for no more than 8spi if I did it and I want it to look bone stock under the bonnet too!

 

Or how about a couple of K04 turbos? Should be able to grab those for a £100 each from a scrappy. There's bags of room at the back where the 4 Motion / R32 rear silencer normally hangs :D Ah, you're doing it in a Corrado. I keep thinking you're doing it to a Bora because of your user name!

Edited September 20, 2013 by Kevin Bacon

[borachris 0]

First thing everyone i've mentioned it to has said "it'll be too laggy", I've given up trying to explain that it doesn't have to be laggy and just say yeah I know but I don't care

 

Good to hear it worked well on a little 4 pot, should be ok on the 3.2 then!

 

I did considerer a GT30 but read a lot about them spooling too quick and breaking gearboxes, although I suppose with the sort of relatively small increases we are talking about at low boost it would be less of an issue? I have seen a couple of ceramic bearing turbos but they were still oil cooled, you wouldn't have to worry about oil pressure at the drain though so could maybe do away with the scavenger pump?

 

I've been looking for a decent pump but most of them are diaphragm type and not recommended for hot oil, best i've found so far is this one from the US

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Electric-Oil-Scavenge-Pump-for-Remote-Low-Rear-Mount-Turbo-Return-Line-12v-/280782665954?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item415ff378e2

 

I would be happy with anywhere between 320-350 as a starting point, maybe build on that depending on how it works out. I'm guessing an uprated pump would be a wise idea for a 5 bar reg? Would I still need a bigger MAF housing for that sort of power, I have the DSG one which someone has told me is bigger than the non DSG ones anyway? I've not measured it yet though.

 

A couple of K04's could be interesting on yours lol

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I think there will be a little lag, but not as bad as some people suggest! That's why I thought a GT30 might work a bit better. It certainly is a gearbox breaker when mounted to the engine (I know of 2 guys who broke 5th and quite a few more broke 3rd) but with all that extra pipework from being rear mounted, I think it will be about right!

 

These electric supercharger guys use dry ceramic bearings -http://www.phantomsuperchargers.com/index.html

 

I don't know where they get the turbos from but that's what we need :) The temperatures at the back of the car will be very low compared being on the engine, so it shouldn't need oil really. That would make life so much easier!!

 

For the pump, I'm sure I saw a youtube clip of an STS installation and they used a Meziere pump. I used one for my chargecooler and they're the best by miles!

 

Interesting clip and comments -

 

Yeah I would get a walbro drop-in pump, the GSS340. Stealth sell them for around £90 but they are unique in providing a sleeve so that it fits in the stock pump cradle properly ;) Good for 500hp.

 

Yeah the MK5 MAF is a little bigger than the MK4 but again, I've heard the standard MAFs can peak out at 280gram/sec, which divided by .80 gives you 350hp :) I'm pretty confident Stealth could map it with a standard MAF. I hate all that 4" bore MAF housing nonsense to be honest.

 

That won't happen on mine for a while yet!

[RedTyphoon 0]

You should be gearbox break free on boost up to 0.6bar. Even with GT30's.

[borachris 0]

I think there will be a little lag, but not as bad as some people suggest! That's why I thought a GT30 might work a bit better. It certainly is a gearbox breaker when mounted to the engine (I know of 2 guys who broke 5th and quite a few more broke 3rd) but with all that extra pipework from being rear mounted, I think it will be about right!

 

These electric supercharger guys use dry ceramic bearings -http://www.phantomsuperchargers.com/index.html

 

I don't know where they get the turbos from but that's what we need :) The temperatures at the back of the car will be very low compared being on the engine, so it shouldn't need oil really. That would make life so much easier!!

 

For the pump, I'm sure I saw a youtube clip of an STS installation and they used a Meziere pump. I used one for my chargecooler and they're the best by miles!

 

Interesting clip and comments -

 

Yeah I would get a walbro drop-in pump, the GSS340. Stealth sell them for around £90 but they are unique in providing a sleeve so that it fits in the stock pump cradle properly ;) Good for 500hp.

 

Yeah the MK5 MAF is a little bigger than the MK4 but again, I've heard the standard MAFs can peak out at 280gram/sec, which divided by .80 gives you 350hp :) I'm pretty confident Stealth could map it with a standard MAF. I hate all that 4" bore MAF housing nonsense to be honest.

 

That won't happen on mine for a while yet!

 

Yeah I understand why you suggested the GT30, I'm leaning towards a GT35 at the moment, purely on a cost basis tbh, a 35 is almost half the price of a 30, not sure why lol. Think my mate has sorted me a good deal on a 44mm Forge wastegate and recirc DV, if it all comes together then 3 of the main components will have cost about £600, well on target for a budget build haha

 

A dry bearing would make life a lot easier yes, it would be easier to just watercool the turbo rather than messing about with oil feed/return/pump.

 

The Walbro from stealth sounds like a good call, I was aiming to approach them about the mapping, i did email united motorsport the other day but not had a response. Probably easier to discuss it over the phone anyway, but i'm hoping to make the RR day at stealth so that would be a good opportunity to have a quick natter about it!

 

Thanks for the links i'll have a look at them once the kids have been shipped off to bed! Appreciate the advice/insight too mate :thumbleft:

 

I don't understand why more people haven't tried it over here, or maybe they have and were too embarrassed to let the world know about their epic failures

 

I'm sure you'll not be able to resist for much longer ;)

 

 

You should be gearbox break free on boost up to 0.6bar. Even with GT30's.

 

Thanks, good to have advice from people who have been there and done it :)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah I understand why you suggested the GT30, I'm leaning towards a GT35 at the moment, purely on a cost basis tbh, a 35 is almost half the price of a 30, not sure why lol. Think my mate has sorted me a good deal on a 44mm Forge wastegate and recirc DV, if it all comes together then 3 of the main components will have cost about £600, well on target for a budget build haha

 

A dry bearing would make life a lot easier yes, it would be easier to just watercool the turbo rather than messing about with oil feed/return/pump.

 

The Walbro from stealth sounds like a good call, I was aiming to approach them about the mapping, i did email united motorsport the other day but not had a response. Probably easier to discuss it over the phone anyway, but i'm hoping to make the RR day at stealth so that would be a good opportunity to have a quick natter about it!

 

Thanks for the links i'll have a look at them once the kids have been shipped off to bed! Appreciate the advice/insight too mate :thumbleft:

 

I don't understand why more people haven't tried it over here, or maybe they have and were too embarrassed to let the world know about their epic failures

 

I'm sure you'll not be able to resist for much longer ;)

 

 

It could be a supply / demand thing. GT30s must sell in greater numbers! If we're talking genuine ones, I've used a GT3071R, a GT3076R & a GT3582R and they were all within 50 quid of each other. How things have changed!!

£600 for all that is indeed a bargain!

 

I was thinking of no oil or water at all. Just lump the turbo at the back, exhaust in and out, boost pipe to the front and that's it :) I was also thinking of a truck turbo. Something simple and agricultural that won't mind hanging under a car! There must be tractor or digger turbos out there that don't bother with oil and water feeds, lol!

 

You won't get very far with United Motorsport. They are famous for being unresponsive and with something like this, you really do need need Vince on the case anyway. Yeah I would have come to the RR day myself but I'm on call with work, booooooo!

 

No worries. I'm really keen on this idea. I'm not even that bothered if it works or not, I just like the experimenting :D

 

I think general awareness of it is still low and it will always attract negative comments from the traditional route guys. Don't knock something until you've tried it I say! If it doesn't work, I'd have no problem reporting my findings if it saves someone else the hassle & expense :D

 

Maybe next summer!

[Hofmiester 10]

I was aiming to approach them about the mapping, i did email united motorsport the other day but not had a response. Probably easier to discuss it over the phone anyway, but i'm hoping to make the RR day at stealth so that would be a good opportunity to have a quick natter about it!

 

I approached both when looking to get mapping for my Vortech. I was disturbed by the reply I got from United Motorsport, the person who replied did not give me their name in the email but said that I should stay away from Vince (Stealth) as his mapping had blown several peoples cars up....This really lowered them in my opinion. Vince was super helpful and went out of his way to tell me more info about what I needed and didnt need in my Vortech build. He also did the mapping at a great price and the car runs better than when it was standard.

Plus every other tuner I have spoken to seems to have respect for his work.....I think it was a low blow from the guys at United.

 

I went with Stealth in the end.

[borachris 0]

It could be a supply / demand thing. GT30s must sell in greater numbers! If we're talking genuine ones, I've used a GT3071R, a GT3076R & a GT3582R and they were all within 50 quid of each other. How things have changed!!

£600 for all that is indeed a bargain!

 

I was thinking of no oil or water at all. Just lump the turbo at the back, exhaust in and out, boost pipe to the front and that's it :) I was also thinking of a truck turbo. Something simple and agricultural that won't mind hanging under a car! There must be tractor or digger turbos out there that don't bother with oil and water feeds, lol!

 

You won't get very far with United Motorsport. They are famous for being unresponsive and with something like this, you really do need need Vince on the case anyway. Yeah I would have come to the RR day myself but I'm on call with work, booooooo!

 

No worries. I'm really keen on this idea. I'm not even that bothered if it works or not, I just like the experimenting :D

 

I think general awareness of it is still low and it will always attract negative comments from the traditional route guys. Don't knock something until you've tried it I say! If it doesn't work, I'd have no problem reporting my findings if it saves someone else the hassle & expense :D

 

Maybe next summer!

 

No i'm deffo not talking genuine for that price hahaha, when i say cheap i mean it

 

2 examples of the ones i've been looking at, if the idea pans out then I would replace it with a genuine Garrett unit.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-GT30-Turbo-GT3037-turbocharger-T3-flange-Water-Oil-Cooled-Turbolader-/320892588361?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4ab6b05149

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GT35-GT3582-Anti-surge-Turbo-Turbocharger-T3-Flange-600HP-0-63-A-R-for-4-6-Cyl-/161022796377?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item257db4e259

 

I've also been looking at 20G TD05's, i figured weld up the internal gate and use an external one, just not sure if the turbo would be a bit restrictive on a 3.2

 

I'll have a look and see if anything is available that doesn't require cooling but I think such a beast will be expensive!

 

As for the RR day the wife is supposed to be at a school reunion in deepest darkest Norfolk, but the rate people are dropping out i'm hoping it will be abandoned and I can palm the kids off on her for the day instead ;)

 

 

 

I approached both when looking to get mapping for my Vortech. I was disturbed by the reply I got from United Motorsport, the person who replied did not give me their name in the email but said that I should stay away from Vince (Stealth) as his mapping had blown several peoples cars up....This really lowered them in my opinion. Vince was super helpful and went out of his way to tell me more info about what I needed and didnt need in my Vortech build. He also did the mapping at a great price and the car runs better than when it was standard.

Plus every other tuner I have spoken to seems to have respect for his work.....I think it was a low blow from the guys at United.

 

I went with Stealth in the end.

 

Thats a bit below the belt and would have put me off too! I've not heard/read one bad comment about Vince and Stealth in general!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

No i'm deffo not talking genuine for that price hahaha, when i say cheap i mean it

 

2 examples of the ones i've been looking at, if the idea pans out then I would replace it with a genuine Garrett unit.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-GT30-Turbo-GT3037-turbocharger-T3-flange-Water-Oil-Cooled-Turbolader-/320892588361?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4ab6b05149

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GT35-GT3582-Anti-surge-Turbo-Turbocharger-T3-Flange-600HP-0-63-A-R-for-4-6-Cyl-/161022796377?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item257db4e259

 

I've also been looking at 20G TD05's, i figured weld up the internal gate and use an external one, just not sure if the turbo would be a bit restrictive on a 3.2

 

I'll have a look and see if anything is available that doesn't require cooling but I think such a beast will be expensive!

 

As for the RR day the wife is supposed to be at a school reunion in deepest darkest Norfolk, but the rate people are dropping out i'm hoping it will be abandoned and I can palm the kids off on her for the day instead ;)

 

 

"Maxtuningrods-uk" :lol: That's definitely Chinese all right :D It's amazing how they can sell a GT35R copy for £155 and still make a profit. The controlling interest of the company must pay the workforce and absolute pittance. Quite sad really, but good for us! I certainly wouldn't run one of those on an engine as I don't trust the metal quality, but at the back of the car where it's much colder, no worries!

 

I'd stick with the internal wastegate tbh and make it even simpler. I think simplicity is key with a rear end job because it means jacking the car up or putting it on a ramp every time there's a problem or if you need to do maintenance, so the simpler it is under there, the better, imo :D And to that end I would also do rigid boost pipes front to back. No silicon that can get ripped, or cheap clamps that can rust up, get knocked off etc etc.

 

I think with smaller turbos I'd do one per bank if you can run 2 pipes down the car!

 

Deepest Darkest Norfolk, lol. I used to work in Naaaaaarwich and yeah, there's some 'rum old' parts of Norfolk :lol:

 

 

Thats a bit below the belt and would have put me off too! I've not heard/read one bad comment about Vince and Stealth in general!

 

Absolutely. I know both parties read the forums, so I won't say too much, but suffice to say I've known Vince for 13 years and wouldn't trust my car with anyone else :)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Oil less turbos - http://compturbo.com/spotlights/oil-less

 

Still needs a water supply but that's a peice of cake to tee off the engine!

[borachris 0]

haha, I know the prices are amazing, i've messaged a few people who have bought them and they have all said they work fine with no issues, all of them running higher boost than I intend to run with. The workforce are probably paid in cups of rice lol

 

I did consider sticking with the internal gate but they all look so small, most of the larger displacement builds i've checked out use external and with me only running low boost i'm really not convinced the internal ones will be big enough to stop boost creep?

 

Yeah she went to boarding school in Cromer, not a bad place but the people seem very 'local' if you get my drift

 

You've really thrown my plans into disarray with those oil-less blowers, thats the sort of money i was wanting to spend on the whole startup project not inc mapping, but damn that would make the whole thing so much better, hmmmm money saved on a scavenger pump and oil lines, how much extra do i need to add.....

 

 

 

Little update:

 

Loom arrived back, all looks good to go, changed a few coil pack connectors that I broke, just ordered a new cam sensor connector which I also broke, amazing how some of them come off so easy and other shatter into a million pieces!!

 

Also picked up a spare unmolested BDB engine and vehicle loom off ebay for a pretty good price, not sure why but spares are always good right?

 

Should be all in by the end of the weekend :)

[Hofmiester 10]

Hey Chris,

How did you get on with your cut down engine mount, have you tried it yet? I ask as I've bought a Renshaw special for the Rear and a second hand VT mount for the gearbox (car already has a VT front) My charger touches the bonnet foam under hard acceleration and I'm worried about denting the bonnet so by changing the mounts, I hope to reduce the movement but I am also considering shaving 10mm off the rear mount to hopefully gain me 5mm at the charger.

[borachris 0]

I've not done anything with it yet Ron, should all be back in by end of play today but I won't be able to fire it up as I need a few connectors to splice the fuel lines together.

 

I won't really be able to tell how much of an effect it's had lowering the engine but in theory it should work lol

 

Will be back with an update at some point over the next couple of days :)

[clumpy1 11]

I've not done anything with it yet Ron, should all be back in by end of play today but I won't be able to fire it up as I need a few connectors to splice the fuel lines together.

 

I won't really be able to tell how much of an effect it's had lowering the engine but in theory it should work lol

 

Will be back with an update at some point over the next couple of days :)

Just been having a look at your thread mate looking very tasty I have a T3 for sale came off my cossie http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281177772243?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

[borachris 0]

Just been having a look at your thread mate looking very tasty I have a T3 for sale came off my cossie http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281177772243?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

 

Thanks Clumpy :)

 

Not sure what i'm doing about the turbo yet, I really fancy one of the oil-less ones that Kev discovered, need to have an ebay sale and see what funds I can raise lol

 

Well finally got the loom back after it taking 4 weeks instead of 1, had to wait until last weekend for some spare time to do a bit with the car though!

 

Had to get a couple of holes drilled in the manifold as it had been used with a standalone single lambda management previously and just had the one in the decat pipe, got my dad to drill it at work then took it to my local friendly welder, Graham at K G Alloy Welding in Thornaby, if anyone needs any welding give him a ring on 07941 966858, he does a great job at an equally great price!

 

 

 

Forgot I needed some heat wrap so had to go to motorscope and get some, didn't fancy trying to wrap the mani once it was in and fitted!

 

Box of fluids and a few other bits from the guys at lookers

 

 

Few pics of the manifold on, few of the bolts were a bit of a pain in the arse to get to but managed to get them all tightened up.

 

 

 

 

Put the main loom back in loosely and cable tied it back up at the back, put the servo back in, then removed the servo and fitted it so it wasn't upside down. Bolted it all back in along with the clutch and brake cylinders, also removed the accelerator pedal, to make room for the DBW.

 

My main assistant Ian was unavoidably absent due to his sons birthday party so getting the engine in was a little bit awkward but still easy enough

 

 

 

 

Ray came over for a bit and had a look at the wiring, laid it out and routed it around the bay etc while I had a tidy up of tools and made room to move around the garage, really need to learn to tidy up as I go lol

 

While he was doing that he noticed the connector for the speedo sensor is wrong, Audi one instead of the older style VR one so that needs sorting out!

 

Started puttin the manifold back on but it looks like the alternator is going to have to come off to get at one of the bolts, might get in with a decent ball ended allen key but I didn't have one with me and the wife was starting to text to see how long I was going to be, I've learnt its sometimes better to just give in and have less earache so packed up and went home!

 

How it sits at the minute

 

 

Will be going over tomorrow to check a few things and make sure I don't need any other bits, all being well should get it fired up on Saturday!

 

Bought a spare pair of BDB looms off ebay, just in case lol

 

 

Random pic of the Polo shifter from underneath

 

Edited October 8, 2013 by borachris

[clumpy1 11]

No problem mate I am thinking about the charger route with mine your's is coming on well good to get another R32 on the forum.

[borachris 0]

No problem mate I am thinking about the charger route with mine your's is coming on well good to get another R32 on the forum.

 

Yeah its getting there, looks like I might actually finish this one lmao!

 

I was considering a charger until I came up with the mad rear mount turbo idea lol.

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

That polo shifter mod is one of the best things I've used on a Corrado, excellent value for money!

[borachris 0]

Is yours running now mate? Not seen any updates for a while!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Tasty updates!

 

Yeah those oil less turbos aren't cheap are they! Reading between the lines, their ceramic bearing system can be put into any turbo but the only thing that put me off was you have to periodically regrease the bearings. I'm a fit and forget man and not sure if I could be bothered with the faff!

 

Yeah you can get at the lower left intake bolt with a long ball ender mate.

 

It's coming along nicely mate!