TEVES 20 ABS system parts list?

[seanl82 23]

Anyone have a parts list, and even better a guide to fitting? Just been to a rather large vehicle recycler that's pretty close by, and there were a few mk 3 golfs there. Will any mk 3 with disks all round do? There are a couple of early vr6s which I took a couple of items from, but hoping they'll have an obd2 one in before long and I can get quite a bit from it.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean.

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

Fitting isn't hard, just a bit time consuming. Hardest bit is replacing all the hard lines. Rest is simple if you have half a brain between your ears! You do quite a solid technical job, you'll be OK. There was a full loom on eBay a few days ago. You just need the pump/ecu and the rear sensors. I spliced the front looms together to retain the wheel arch gromit as the mk3 one is a different shape to the Corrado one and then when it comes to the warning light, get the mk3 warning light and loom and *******ise the mk3 light into the Corrado ABS lense and all is golden.

 

If you have the A2 resource page for ce2 fuse box pin outs, that will make it simple to electrically fit.

 

As far as fitting the pump/ecu, I made a hybrid mount out of the rear of the Corrado bracket and front of the mk3 bracket and mount to the stock location.

 

As far as the servo and brake master cylinder go, the mk3 servo fits (negating the pedal position sensor yay!) in place of the Corrado one but it is a bit of a squeeze! You also need to cut the ball from the mk3 servo for the pedal attachment and run a die down the shaft to fix the fork from the Corrado pedal to servo attachment over to the mk3 servo.

 

I'm sure you have the skills to do this, all you need is the confidence, time and parts :-)

 

BTW, I bought my complete setup from Kevin Bacon minus the warning light and loom for £60 delivered. Wiring loom, servo and pump/sensors included.

[seanl82 23]

Thanks Sean. I'll ask how much for it all before I start stripping it down! I'm going back next weekend so may well get it then. The guy that served me said they have another VR coming in so I'm hoping it's a late one and I can grab everything for the OBD2 conversion too. So do I need to replace all hard lines, or just the rears and bin the bias valve?

[P3rks 11]

It's been covered before. You even posted in the thread!

 

http://the-corrado.net/showthread.php?t=84513&p=1003843#post1003843

Edited January 12, 2014 by P3rks

[seanl82 23]

I did search, but with a title of 'brakes', is it any wonder I didn't find it!

 

Thanks for the link though. :thumbleft:

[P3rks 11]

I did search, but with a title of 'brakes', is it any wonder I didn't find it!

 

Thanks for the link though. :thumbleft:

 

Bare with me I'm just going to do a little info-graph on the systems. i'll add a reply asap.

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

Thanks Sean. I'll ask how much for it all before I start stripping it down! I'm going back next weekend so may well get it then. The guy that served me said they have another VR coming in so I'm hoping it's a late one and I can grab everything for the OBD2 conversion too. So do I need to replace all hard lines, or just the rears and bin the bias valve?

 

I replaced everything for peace of mind, but then I do have time on my side with the old girl. I think you could reuse the front right brake pipe and it would fit, but you have to ask yourself why would you for the sake of 20 mins of making a new line. You do need to source 6 12mm x 3/16 unions as vw made them different sizes to avoid the wrong pipe being fitted to the wrong port during manufacture in the factory. 2 for the master cylinder, 2 for the master cylinder feeds and one for one of the front lines and one of the rear lines.

 

I have a picture on my laptop showing which port is for which wheel on the abs pump but I'll have to add it later for you as I'm on the tablet.

[seanl82 23]

Thanks guys, really appreciate it. A 'how to' in the wiki would be good I think, from what you've both said, it's a really worthwhile upgrade with parts readily available still. :thumbleft:

[P3rks 11]

To clarify a few things:

 

Corrado VR6 Teves 02

All Corrado VR6's came with the Teves 02 ABS system; from start to end of production the system is identical, the only difference will be part numbers; as VW changed the identifiers to 1HO some time in the mid 90's - but all parts are 100% physically the same. About the system:

- ABS and EDL

- 3 channel ABS system, (fronts independent, rear is one channel).

- Rear bias controlled via a mechanical load valve.

- The ABS utilises 4x wheel speed sensors and a metallic ring on the hub to know how fast the wheel is spinning, or not.

- Teves 02 uses a pedal position sensor built into the servo so it knows how hard (read far) you are pressing the pedal.

- A unique ABS servo

- The Teves 02 Master Cylinder, you have to bleed manually.

- The ABS pump has to be bled manually.

- The ABS pump requires two large extra feeds

 

Overall it's a really old, basic, primitive system. Being 3 channel If one rear wheel locks, the ABS system reduces pressure to both rear wheels. The rear bias valve is known for failing and often corrodes itself to the rear axle needing to be cut off. It works by opening up and thus increasing pressure the lower the car is - In theory, under normal conditions if the rear went lower it was because there was more weight, and with more weight you need more pressure. This is obviously affected by those who lower our cars and also any suspension movement the car may have. The Teves 02 ABS system needs to be manually bled on the MC and ABS pump as well as all four corners and is a horrible job to do. The MC is now obsolete and hard to get hold of good used examples. The ABS know's when you are braking by the use of a pedal position sensor, the further you press the pedal the harder the ABS kicks in. The Pedal position sensor is now obsolete. The ABS pump and ECU are separate. The loom is large with relays above the heater box and fuses above the fuse box, the front sensor loom can be split above the front turrets as well as from the front sensor itself and the rear sensors start from under the rear seats. The Teves 02 uses a co-axle style wiring for the sensors. The ECU is in the cabin in the passenger foot well and the loom also goes to the servo for the pedal sensor.

 

 

Now the Teves 20 ABS system:

- ABS / EDL

- 4 channel

- Larger ABS pump

- Integral ECU/Pump

- No rear compensator, it's all electric

- self bleeding

- No pedal sensor

- The Servo is the same as non ABS cars

- No extra feeds

- The ABS utilises 4x wheel speed sensors and a metallic ring on the hub to know how fast the wheel is spinning, or not.

 

The Teves 20 system is a vast improvement, It's a 4 channel system so each wheel is independent, it no longer uses a bias valve and any bias is done electronically in real time. It no longer uses a pedal sensor and the ABS is activated purely via a basic on/off switch linked to the brake lights - the second you push the pedal it turns on and monitors for wheel locking electronically. The MC is self bleeding, aluminium and is highly available. The ABS pump is larger and faster vastly improving pedal feel and can also be electronically bled using VAGCOM. The pump is combined with the ECU and uses such less wiring. In short it's lighter, faster, stronger, compact and smarter. The loom is basic and goes from the ABS pump/ECU to the fuse box and then to all four corners. The wires to the front sensors are one piece direct to the sensors themselves and the rear sensor loom goes to under the rear seats like the Corrado, but the Teves 20 uses a basic live/earth two wire system for the sensors.

 

 

When searching for Teves 20 it can be visually identified by three things:

- The servo will NOT have a pedal sensor

- The rear axle will NOT have a bias valve

- The ABS pump has the integral ECU combined with it on the underside.

 

 

What cars can I take the Teves 20 from?

The Teves 20 ABS system came on later model Golf's (post 95) and also B4 Passats. Ideally the best donor car is the B4 Passat. The difference between the Golf and Passat are:

- The Passat uses the exact same running gear / bulkhead / pedal arrangement as the Corrado, the dash gear is the same size and shape, everything is more or less plug and play and requires no custom work.

- The Golf however uses a different fixing for the servo - Although it'll physically fit, the fixing at the pedal end is a ball joint, where as the Corrado/Passat uses a hole/pin arrangement. The golf's pedal arrangement is very different to the Corrado's and will not fit at all. The only option to use a Golf servo is to cut the ball end off, tap a thread and use the Corrado hole/pin arrangement from the old servo. Personally I don't like this option nor do I recommend it as the shaft on the servo is tapered, but I know it has been done in the past.

- The Golf's ABS pump bracket is different, you can either drill new holes in the Corrado bulkhead/fastener plate or cut and weld the Golf bracket to the original Corrado bracket.

- The Golf's interior ABS light is a larger style, it will not fit in the dash and the PCB is longer than the Corrado's slot so you'll really really have to cut up the dash slot/original Corrado light casing.

- The Golfs master cylinder reservoir cap uses a different wiring connection for the warning light feed.

 

 

Parts you need for the Teves 20 conversion:

- ABS pump with integral ECU. Passat B4 / Post 95 Golf MK3

- ABS pump bracket - Either from a B4 Passat for a straight swap or a modified MK3 bracket (cut and weld)

- ABS pump to fusebox/sensor loom.

- Rear ABS Sensors, either use post 95 Golf, B4 Passat or 6n2 Polo rear sensors. Must be from a Teves 20 car.

- Front ABS sensors, original Corrado ones can be used. Or any same style sensors from any Teves 02 or Teves 20 car, personally just use Corrado, Mk3 Golf or B4 Passat.

- ABS light - Must be from a Teves 20 car. The post 95 Golf works but will not fit in the original hole and needs irreversible modifying to dash and light cover. Use a B4 Passat light PCB and the original Corrado casing for an OE look. A teves 02 light will NOT work and can NOT be modifed.

- ABS light to fusebox loom - Must match the ABS light you use. i.e Passat b4 light and Passat B4 interior loom, or post 95 Golf Mk3 light and post 95 Golf Mk3 loom.

- Servo - From a non ABS car or Teves 20 ABS car. Passat B4 is preferable as the post 95 Golf needs modifying and is dangerous in my opinion.

- Master cylinder - Passat B4 or Post 95 Golf. Must be from a Teves 20 car and is 23mm.

- Master cylinder reservoir - Passat Teves 20 ABS or non ABS. Golf non ABS or Teves 20 ABS with the original Corrado cap or modified wiring connection.

- New custom pipework throughout

 

 

What to use from your old system

The ONLY things you save from your old Corrado Teves 02 system is the front sensors and ABS light casing. You can NOT use the ABS light, rear sensors, pump, ecu, fusebox to ABS light loom or any other loom. You can't use any of the original copper pipe work as the Teves 20 MC outputs are in different places, as are the ABS pumps - plus the pump uses larger external diameter unions. It doesn't use a rear valve so the rear pipes are one piece from pump to rear flexi's.

 

 

To Clarify

The ABS light between Teves 02 and Teves 20 are wired different (on the circuit board/loom) and can not be interchanged at all, it speaks with the ECU differently and the ECU uses the light as a fixed circuit, if the light doesn't work neither will the ABS. You need a Teves 20 light. The Golf's ABS light circuit board is far too wide and a unique shape in the dash. It will not fit and can not be realistically modified to work. The Passat B4 Teves 20 light is the exact same size and shape as the Corrao's, it just looks different. You can do a straight swap for the Corrado casing. You also need the 100% matching light to fusebox loom for plug and play results - This loom is around 6 wires and goes from one clip to one clip, nice and easy - but it differs from Golf to Passat and Teves 02 to Teves 20.

 

The Servo that Teves 20 uses is the same as a non ABS servo. I highly recommend a Passat B3/B4 non ABS servo or a Passat B4 Teves 20 ABS servo. Both are the same part number and are a straight swap, finding a non ABS Passat B3/B4 servo is easy, don't be an idiot when brakes are involved and don't mess with the pedal anchor point on the Mk3 Servo, it's not worth it. I believe, but don't quote me that you can use a non ABS Corrado servo too.

 

The master cylinder reservoir has to be from a hydraulic clutch VW with either no ABS or Teves 20 ABS. The Corrado reservoir has two extra outlets which are NOT needed with Teves 20.

 

For the record I used a Golf MK3 Teves 20 master cylinder and reservoir (with MK3 golf spliced connection on my Corrado loom), MK3 Golf Teves 20 ABS pump/ECU and loom, MK3 golf Teves 20 rear sensors, the original Corrado front sensors, Passat B3 non ABS servo, Passat B4 Teves 20 ABS light, matching light to fuse box loom with the original Corrado ABS light cover (so it looks factory). My ABS pump/ECU bracket was a cutdown MK3 ABS bracket with the original Corrado bracket welded to the rear so it uses the orignal bulkhead fixings. All copper pipes were re-newed and custom shaped.

 

 

***Disclaimer: I wrote this from memory and although I believe this to be 100% accurate, as with any safety system on your car please do it properly, research and don't cut corners. Your life and others will be at risk if you do it poorly or make mistakes. If you don't know what you're doing ask for help or seek a professional - I won't take responsibility for your actions.**

Edited January 12, 2014 by P3rks

[P3rks 11]

Now, wiring:

 

There are essentially 4 wires coming from the Teves 20 ABS system loom to the fusebox, these 4 wires split/splice into 6 wires in total.

 

 

The 4 wires coming from the ABS looms ECU connection. These have been physically traced and also confirmed with wiring diagrams:

 

- grey/white - Pin 16

 

- grey/white - Pin 13

 

- black/red - Pin 12

 

- black/yellow - Pin 23

 

 

 

Now, the same loom at the fusebox side of things:

 

- grey/white (Pin 16) - Goes to fusebox plug W2 which I believe is for the ABS warning light

 

- grey/white (Pin 13) - Is the diagnostic connector which goes to the diagnostic block behind the centre console

 

- black/red (Pin 12) - Goes to fusebox plug W4 which is connected to the brake light switch fusebox side - There is also a same coloured wire coming out at the W4 connection going to a single female terminal which is spare and not used.

 

- black/yellow (Pin 23) - Now I think this goes to fusebox plug D7 (via a single terminal I believe) which is an ignition live.

 

 

Connected to the W plug is a blue/white wire (W1) which is a VSS feed and plugs into the VSS block on top of the fusebox.

 

 

 

Now here is where it gets confusinge..

 

As stated above black/red not only goes from ABS loom Pin 12, to W4 but also from W4 to a single female terminal. On the wiring diagrams it goes to a signal point terminal T1. This is essentially a secondary feed for a brake light switch. I.e. when the brake lights come on this feed goes live, brake lights off the feed goes off. there is a single wire terminal hanging down next to the fuse box which can be used here.

 

 

Also, on the wiring diagrams; black/yellow goes from ABS Pin 23 to a terminal (TV18) which then goes to D3 and D7 on the fusebox. I believe both D3 and D7 are ignition lives. This is the only wire which you need to cut and splice from the original loom. the rest is plug and play.

 

 

I do have pictures from my conversion which i'll have to spend hours going through. I'll update this post as and when I get chance.

 

Any questions, just ask

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

It's not something that is easy to give a how to as you just kind of have to work out your wiring routing as you go. I was also fitting climate control at the time so that adjusts things. It didn't help that I didn't take any pictures either!

 

Basically to remove the old system, find the ecu and follow the wiring from there. Going from the ecu, you go forward and up behind where the heater ducting is and remove the wiring from in the bay through that grommet.

 

You then need to remove the 2 front seats and all the handbrake plastics and lift the carpet up to remove the interior abs wiring. It goes from the old ecu location, along the sill as far as being level with the handbrake where it splits in 2. One part goes backwards under the trim, up the inside of the rear seat trim and under the rear seats where the old system has a plug break for the sensors.

The other part of the loom is the power loom, this goes under the left seat, up under the front of the handbrake where I think it split in 2 (can't quite remember!) for a feed to go off to the diagnostic block behind the centre console and the rest of the loom drops down under the right seat, goes across to the sill and then follows forward to go behind the kick panel trim and into the fuse box.

 

When it came to fitting the new wiring, I went through the same original grommet and then feed the interior power part of the loom along the bulkhead, teeing off to the diagnostic block and going to the fuse box. The rear sensor lines traced along the left hand sill, under the trim and under the rear seats like the original system.

[seanl82 23]

Excellent and very thorough, thanks for taking the time mate! When you get your pics together, stick it in the wiki as this is brilliant! :thumbleft:

[DriverVR6 11]

EnthusiastOwned, thanks for taking the time to write this up. Very useful and informative.

[P3rks 11]

No problem.. I will get around to doing a basic guide and I'll include photo's.. Just finding time. I spent around 1.5 hours writing that guide!

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

For pipework from the abs pump

 

 

Where pipes

 

1 - Front Right (10mm x 3/16 union)

2 - Rear Left (12mm x 3/16 union)

3 - Rear Right (10mm x 3/16 union)

4 - Front Left (12mm x 3/16 union)

 

Feed B is for the Front Right/Rear Left circuit and Feed A is for the Rear Right and front Left Circuit (both ends of each feed pipe are 12mm x 3/16 unions)

Edited January 12, 2014 by Sean_Jaymo

[P3rks 11]

Yep, that's the same image I used for mine.

 

I think between myself and Sean_jaymo we'll get a good guide going. Just need to get my photos done. PurpleTom needs a mention too!

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

It was Tom that put me onto this to start with so I agree, Kudos to the Diesel Rado Man himself!

 

It all sounds a bit complicated and over whelming, but if you can make brake lines without wanting to break out into tears and are comfortable pulling out the fusebox, then you can do this without too much hassle. Once you have the wiring laid out in front of you, it's actually a fairly simple system that is completely standalone from other electrical systems unlike in later Teves 60 systems.

[seanl82 23]

Bit of copper pipe and a flaring tool, can't be too hard! :shrug:

 

With this wiring info and description of what's what, I'm sure more will carry out this conversion now. I may even be buying a late Golf VR to break next w.end instead of stripping an unknown one from the breakers yard now...........:smug:

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

Bit of copper pipe and a flaring tool, can't be too hard! :shrug:

 

 

Some people are easily scared or just lack the know how! I'd use Kunifer pipe myself though

[thegolfman 0]

How did you get on with this SeanL?

[seanl82 23]

I didn't bother in the end Tony. The seller of that Golf mentioned above didn't respond to messages so I didn't get it. Managed to get mine working finally with a little help swapping known good bits from yours. (pump & controller). I put them back though once I knew they were good. :thumbleft: I had to replace every component of the system except for 1 front and 1 rear sensor though, including looms which I got from VR6Gar out of his breaker. I managed to get a brand spankers pedal position sensor from here too which helped. All in my members gallery.

[Jim Bowen 1]

I fitted mine, was quite a big job in the end but most of its in now, no idea if it works or not yet though

[thegolfman 0]

The reason I posted, is I fancy a Teves 20 system in mine with the aim of getting a rock solid pedal.

 

Might look for a local mk3 breaking.

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

You don't get a modern feeling rock solid pedal by moving to the Teves system. Don't get me wrong it feels OK but it's not like a modern system. You need to fit a larger master cylinder for the solid feel but then you'd be loosing brake power which means you'd need to fit a bigger sevo which is what they do in modern cars for the stronger brakes.

 

Again, don't get me wrong, The Teves 20 system (having had it for a year and 7k) is so much better than the standard system under heavy breaking but it's not a modern feeling pedal by any stretch of the imagination, it is still quite long in the travel and a bit soft in the feel. But then ultimately, Teves 20 with 288 calipers is what came standard on late mk3 golf's so that's the year of brake feel you get. Teves 20 abs pumps are self bleeding to a point, you get 90% out with normal bleeding and given a bit of time, the rest of the air is worked out via some sort of magic and the pedal firms up a bit more.

 

If you have access to the kit and the inclination to fit it, I whole heartedly recommend it but don't do it under the pretense that it's a modern system.

 

If you don't have the kit or want to fit it, a vacuum bleed of the brakes can work wonders for the feel! I know Sean would have bleed them before selling to you and I don't doubt his ability at all but the brakes can be a bit of a pig to get 100% free of air.

 

Where are you anyway? You're more than welcome to give mine a drive at a meet or whatever?

Edited April 7, 2015 by Sean_Jaymo

[thegolfman 0]

You don't get a modern feeling rock solid pedal by moving to the Teves system. Don't get me wrong it feels OK but it's not like a modern system. You need to fit a larger master cylinder for the solid feel but then you'd be loosing brake power which means you'd need to fit a bigger sevo which is what they do in modern cars for the stronger brakes.

 

Again, don't get me wrong, The Teves 20 system (having had it for a year and 7k) is so much better than the standard system under heavy breaking but it's not a modern feeling pedal by any stretch of the imagination, it is still quite long in the travel and a bit soft in the feel. But then ultimately, Teves 20 with 288 calipers is what came standard on late mk3 golf's so that's the year of brake feel you get. Teves 20 abs pumps are self bleeding to a point, you get 90% out with normal bleeding and given a bit of time, the rest of the air is worked out via some sort of magic and the pedal firms up a bit more.

 

If you have access to the kit and the inclination to fit it, I whole heartedly recommend it but don't do it under the pretense that it's a modern system.

 

If you don't have the kit or want to fit it, a vacuum bleed of the brakes can work wonders for the feel! I know Sean would have bleed them before selling to you and I don't doubt his ability at all but the brakes can be a bit of a pig to get 100% free of air.

 

Where are you anyway? You're more than welcome to give mine a drive at a meet or whatever?

 

Thanks for the info. As a bit of background, I have built two MK2 VR's, and both were a pig to bleed up and get a decent pedal on and that was without bleeding an ABS pump (although I used a terrible pressure type pump and gave up resorting to the old UP-DOWN-UP-DOWN!).

 

I know you'll never get a rock solid feeling pedal like the newer cars - I probably worded that wrong, but thought that it might be a bit better using the more modern system. Maybe it might be because I've spent a few years away from older VW's it wasn't quite what I expected, or maybe these just need going over again to remove some of the spongeyness?

 

The car does have a fully working ABS system, and 288's up front.

 

I'm in Northampton, so not too far depending on where you are. (Updated my profile to show this too.) Maybe rolling road at Stealth later this year if it goes ahead, or E38 if your into that kind of thing :)