Bad VR6 noise

[Timbo 0]

 

A few weeks ago I started getting a bad tappet tick after the engine warmed up a bit. I took the rocker cover off to have a look and see if anything was obviously broken. It all looked visually fine, but I could get some movement in cylinder 1's tappets with just finger pressure. About the same time I noticed a few metal flakes around the cylinder head. At the time I had SP263 cams and I mostly convinced myself the metal flakes were down to run in wear from the cams. Anyway, I ordered a new set of tappets and went back to standard cams. Started it up and it was completely quiet... for about 5 minutes until it started clattering again. Sigh. New tappets come prefilled with oil so I guess this makes sense?

 

So now I'm thinking, OK, the tappets are brand new so probably fine, perhaps my oil pump isn't supplying enough pressure to keep them filled? So off comes the sump and I replace the oil pump. The bolts that connect the output pipe to the pump were not loose, but not exactly tight either so perhaps it hasn't been pumping up into the block particularly well. Hmm. Meanwhile, I look at the sump and it's covered in metallic particles :(. It looks like aluminium to me, again presumably from the cylinder head but there are some larger copper coloured flakes that could be big end/small end bearings?

 

Anyway, I put the sump back on, put some new oil in and it's still making an horrendous clattering noise as you can hear. Maybe I just need to be brave and rev it a bit to get the tappets filled? Anybody got any other insights? Maybe the metal sludge in the sump has blocked some of the oil galleries in the cylinder head?

 

Bloody cars.

[g0ldf1ng3r 14]

ouch!!

 

im no expert but i wouldnt associate the louder of those noises as tappets

 

good luck - it certainly doesnt sound healthy the poor thing

[1xshaunx1 27]

I think you've been brave enough. I wouldn't rev that any more. I had a landrover make that noise. Little end bearings and crank. I think it needs some real love and cash.

Good luck mate sounds proper portly.

[Timbo 0]

Thing is I would 100% agree with you guys if it hadn't been completely quiet immediately after replacing the (prefilled) tappets. It was only after the oil warmed up that it because noisy again. Really don't want to take the crank out for nothing.

[Dox 23]

 

Big ends and main bearing shells are copper coated before lead based white metal is coated on them

 

 

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[Dox 23]

Thick oil is compensating for the worn bearings when cold, if you continue to run it and it is worn big ends you'll score the crank making it an engine out job and total strip down for repair.

 

Sump off and conrod caps off to confirm worn big ends if it was mine

[1xshaunx1 27]

Me too. Totally agree with Dox

[somersetdub 0]

Ouch, that doesn't sound like tappets. Sounds much more sinister unfortunately and Dox has given good advice.

 

 

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[Timbo 0]

Fair enough, balls. Could swear it's a top end sound though. Hmmmph.

[Rado87 10]

Could be the little ends? Where the gudgeon pins fit through the top of the Conrod? Sounds like my transit when they went. Either way, not ideal!

 

 

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[fla 9]

Big end bearing shells aren't hard to change just remove and refit carefully. Best to leave the oil to drain overnight otherwise you get annoying drips all the time.

 

Just a thought though, did you turn over the engine without sparks and fuel pump relay removed to build up pressure first?

[Timbo 0]

I think I would prefer if it were the big end!

[Timbo 0]

Yes well, safe to say it's big end.

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Timbo

[1xshaunx1 27]

I can't see the image. Is it just shells Tim or worse.

Can you fix it mister

[Timbo 0]

Edited it to rehost the image; hopefully it can be seen now. It is shells, or what's left of them. I haven't measured it, but the crank journal looks more or less ruined. I think it's a fairly dead engine now to be honest, and not really worth rebuilding given it's had shredded bearing shell pumping round it for who knows how long.

 

Anyone got a spare engine? ;)

[1xshaunx1 27]

****e the bed that's terrible news. Second hand block and a recon head off of our polish friend on here

[Dox 23]

I've never seen shells as bad as that, normally its just the white metal and copper coating, the steel shells themselves are normally intact

[robrado974 1]

When I made the pic larger to see the damage I thought it looked worse as it blurs the bigger you make it .But oh dear what a mess .

[Jim Bowen 1]

Similar thing happened to mine. Still unsure what happened. Have you had any work done recently?

[Dox 23]

The crank floats on oil supplied to the bearings, its not supposed to touch the bearings at all being a lead based alloy they can't take any heat.

 

The oil pump doesn't create the oil pressure, the close tolerances of the bearings does this (think of a hose pipe with your thumb over the end, then remove your thumb), once the bearings start to wear pressure begins to drop, which acerbates the wear on the bearings. Oil leaking past the bearings then doesn't pass to the upper parts of the engine and makes that noisy.

 

If the bores and pistons are good I'd look for a good used crank (2.8 maybe?)

[Timbo 0]

Similar thing happened to mine. Still unsure what happened. Have you had any work done recently?

 

I rebuilt the head in the past couple of years, but besides that nothing of note. The fact that I had done this work is really why I homed in on it as the source of the noise. One of the conrod bolts on the affected cylinder was not what I would call loose, but certainly not tight. It's impossible to know whether this is cause or effect though really. Worth saying all the other bearings looked completely fine. The most surprising thing for me is how suddenly it came on. It was completely quiet until a few weeks back when the knocking started. I've only started it since to check if my attempts at fixes made any difference, and for a few minutes after replacing the tappets it was completely quiet again. Very odd.

 

If the bores and pistons are good I'd look for a good used crank (2.8 maybe?)

 

Thing is, if the crank is goosed (and I'm pretty sure it is), so is the conrod. And if the conrod needs replaced then the piston needs to come out and if the piston needs to come out, the block needs to be split and if the block needs to be split I'm basically doing a rebuild and I might as well save myself the trouble and replace the whole engine. To be frank I'm in my mid to late thirties now and this p1ssing about with cars thing is starting to get a bit tiresome.

 

I guess my options are:

 

* Sell as a non-runner project for someone else to fix up

* Fix and rebuild the existing VR6

* Replace (+refurb?) with another VR6

* Like a muppet, turn it into an R32 project

Edited July 1, 2017 by Timbo

[Dox 23]

I'm 50, I spent 3 hours on Thursday evening (between rain showers) replacing driveshafts on my daily for an mot pass the day after.

 

Your block is a known entity that's all I was trying to say, poor Jim Bowen bought a brand new block and pistons and still had a failure similar to your own shortly afterwards

[Timbo 0]

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as snarky; it's been an annoying few weekends getting oily, recently, for no payback. You make a good point, though having said that I wouldn't say I was confident in this block, now :(. I'm leaning towards replacing the engine, I think.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Timbo

[coullstar 0]

I would agree, they do get tiresome sometimes. How about getting a part time replacement, even a 2.8, and then rebuild the original over time. Don't think a used 2.8 go for that much really.