VR6 Rattling Clutch (& Inspecting Timing Chains)

[2cc 0]

Well the strip down to discover the cause of the green beast's chattering clutch is coming on. Good job I’m in no rush and I have a nice warm shed to work in as there’s tons of stuff to remove to get at it; place looks like a car boot sale! And getting the gearbox off is a real laugh with only one pair of hands. Thinks – it would be easier for a girly ‘cos they can multi task – no offence ladies :lol: Now I just have to encourage the lower chain cover to part prom the block so I can see how bad things really are. Can’t see the bottom pad yet, but the top one is worn through to the backing plate :shock: , so I’m just in time with that. But, surprisingly, they still run quietly.

The chatter was caused by the pivot end of the release arm rubbing on the outer cover of the pressure plate casing. Not sure exactly why that should cause it to rub, but the arm has cracked on both sides and has bent a bit, and the friction plate and bearing are well down to the limit. All of which accounts for the pedal being on the floor!

 

Ordered a pile of new bits from my vag man today:

Friction plate

Pressure plate

Release bearing

Release arm

Release arm ball pin

Release arm retaining spring

3 Eng mtgs (and a bolt)

2 Rubber mtgs for the aux water pump

10 Flywheel bolts

Coolant

Chain casing sealant

Crank oil seal

2 Seals for the temp sensor block

Upper chain

Lower chain

Upper slide

Lower slide

Upper tensioner pad (Mk4)

Lower tensioner & pad

Upper tensioner bolt (Mk4)

 

Anyone want to hazard a guess how much?

 

Should get it all on Thursday so I can start the rebuild, but could someone please tell me the torque figures for following:

 

Upper & Lower chain slide bolts

Lower tensioner bolt

Chain cover bolts

Flywheel bolts

Temp sensor block bolts (wouldn’t want to crack it would I)

Cam cover bolts

Inlet manifold joining bolts

 

Cheers guys. I’ve taken loads of pix & will post some up soon. Might even write a ‘how to’ for your pages Dinkus.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

but the top one is worn through to the backing plate :shock: , so I’m just in time with that. But, surprisingly, they still run quietly.

 

Aha, thank you for confirming that :lol: Everybody assumes no noise = no chain tensioner wear - WRONG!

 

Good luck with the rebuild. This clatter you were getting. Was it when the clutch pedal was up but goes when depressed? Sounds like a load of marbles rattling around in a biscuit tin? I was always told this was caused by either the input or layshaft bearings in the gearbox at worst, or a worn release bearing at best. Looks like you've found another cause :lol:

 

Mine rattles as described but it's done for it two years and not got any worse. It's had 3 clutches and the faults you describe were not present.....so it must be my bearings :?

[dr_mat 0]

Ahem. But if the chains don't rattle it means they're not loose hence no danger of skipping a tooth, despite the condition of the tensioner pad... ;)

Anyway, mine are done, so it's everyone else's problem now! Ha! ;)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

So how do chains 'rattle' per se? They're guided with plastic mouldings from top to bottom and your ears are so finely atuned to drivetrain backlash that you can hear it over a the grinding of chain to metal contact?

[dr_mat 0]

The typical chain rattle noise that we're all petrified of appears to be caused by the chain being loose and clattering against one of the guides, or against the tensioner itself. Probably the tensioner wearing down isn't the only effect that causes it - probably it's chain stretch too. IMHO. ;)

No, I doubt that anyone would notice that noise of chain-to-rivet grind over the general noisiness of a VR6 top end, but I believe the clatter is caused by a loose chain, not necessarily a worn tensioner. After all, if the tensioner is worn, but the chain is still kept taught, what's there to rattle?

[Supercharged 2]

So how do chains 'rattle' per se? They're guided with plastic mouldings from top to bottom and your ears are so finely atuned to drivetrain backlash that you can hear it over a the grinding of chain to metal contact?

 

He's a Doctor... surely he uses his stethescope :wink:

[thamouse1981 0]

is there any way of checking these chains without having to take the clutch out some kind of inspection hole? or is the only method to either replace them or let it skip and replace the lot

[Kevin Bacon 5]

The only way to be sure is to remove the upper access panel (what coilpack bolts to) and rocker cover and measure the slack in the chain span between cam wheels. Get the engine on TD1 no 1 and the chain should be rigid. If you can lift it up and down a CM or so, it's stretched and will need doing at some point in the near future.... but it won't necessarily flap around and rattle as indicated above.

[Supercharged 2]

I think you can see the upper tensioner condition from this as well?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I think you can see the upper tensioner condition fo this as well?

 

You can indeed....

[Timo. 0]

How much did all those parts cost then??? Bet you were there for hours telling the VW part muppet the stuff you needed :mad:

 

 

 

Timo.

[Valver 0]

but the top one is worn through to the backing plate :shock: , so I’m just in time with that. But, surprisingly, they still run quietly.

 

Aha, thank you for confirming that :lol: Everybody assumes no noise = no chain tensioner wear - WRONG!

 

Yeah, the Passat lump we took apart for my mk2 conversion had no rattle and ran sweet as a nut but we found the upper guide although bolted in, just came apart in 3 pieces when removed and also was worn down to the rivets..... :shock:

All been replaced with new components now, so should be good for the next 100k or so... :wink:

[2cc 0]

This seems to have generated some interest. My only comment on 'chain rattle' is that people keep talking about it - whether you would actually hear it (cos I haven't) is another matter. Perhaps the best thing is just to have a look - then you'll know.

Kev, the symptoms and noise was just as you described - wonder whats going on inside your bell housing (no jokes please we're British)

 

But more importantly.

 

Nobody want to guess how much the bits cost? (Actually Timo my spares man identified all the bits without any help)

 

Someone please come back with the Torque Figures so I can rebuild it.................

 

Just managed to get the bottom cover off - back to work on it now

[Valver 0]

Nobody want to guess how much the bits cost?

 

From VAG?.........about £500+!! :shock:

[Timo. 0]

Amazing, a VW guy that knows something :shock: I'm shocked!!!! :mrgreen:

 

I guess £501 8)

 

What prize does the winner get?

 

T.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Kev, the symptoms and noise was just as you described - wonder whats going on inside your bell housing (no jokes please we're British)

 

I've had numerous gearboxes make the 'marble' noise Chris.... BMWs, my old MK2, Cavalier and now the C. If you look on Vortex you'll find LOADS of Americans complain of the same noise but the advice is always the same if there are no signs of what you've found - Live with it!!

[2cc 0]

HELP. I got all my new bits today(cept the tensioner bolt), but find the new MK4 type top tensioner pad does not fit. It has got an extended pivot tube in comparison to the original part and my dealer can't tell which "Mk 4" we are talking about. PLEASE, has someone got the part number for this new bit. AND I'm thinking the new tensioner bolt may also be the wrong bit (when it arrives) so would like the number fro that also. See pic of the old and new bit[/img] I was really hoping to rebuild her over the hols but am stuffed if I can't get the right bits pdq

Thanks in advance

[Skimask 0]

2CC try these for the timing chains, they are Zipped MDI (Microsoft Data Image) files. :D

[dr_mat 0]

Kevhaywire posted the part numbers in a thread a while back. Use the search, should be locateable.

Yes, you need a tensioner bolt that matches the new tensioner, you can't use the old style with the new, and vice versa..

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Blimey, it's been a while but 021 501 109E rings a bell for the tensioner pad, and the Spring/Hydraulic bolt to go with it ends B. A is the old hydraulic only one.

[2cc 0]

Hi guys, engaged brain and called Stealth for the numbers. Needless to say these are not in stock this far south but, of course, Vince had some. Big Up to him and the boys, and I have just got back from a high speed dash up there to collect them. For anyone else still interested in the part numbers, I can confirm that they are:

 

Late type top tensioner pad - 021 109 509E

Late type Tensioner Plunger (bolt) - 021 109 507B

 

And of course I have the numbers for the rest of the stuff that goes in there! Final cost £538.86. So it had better last a while.

 

Thanks for your replies fellas, much appreciated.

skimask - I can't open your files. My microsoft package (win xp) says it doesn't recogise them - even when I ask it to search the web.

dr mat - I know, but i've searched for ages and could never find the numbers.

Kev - You were pretty close.

 

I thought I'd attached a pic of the old & new pads on my last post (it was there on preview) but evidently not. Once I learn how to do that I'll post some pix of the job The rebuild starts on Monday :D

Happy Christmas to anyone still browsing. Talk to you again when Andi has finished working his magic.

Cheers Andi

[Jim 2]

Merry Xmas mate.. you should have gimmie a PM as I don't live far from Stealth. Could have gone for a quick beer, and I could have interrogated Stealth about some work I need doing in the new year ;)

 

Have a good'un and good luck with the rebuild.

[Heardy 0]

I think you can see the upper tensioner condition from this as well?

Is it possible to replace just the upper tensioner seeing as though you can see it ?

[dr_mat 0]

No.. The fixing for it is behind the bottom casing...

[2cc 0]

Ahem. Slight embarrassment. Has anyone on here done the chains job on an ABV VR6 engine? When I took it apart I couldn’t see the timing marker on the inner intermediate sprocket so didn’t get a photo of it, but after it was apart I spotted it – I am sure it must have been in the ‘upper’ position, where it is obscured from sight by the chains. The concern I have in reinstalling it is that the thrust washer behind it (and fixed to the block) has two timing grooves, one at the top and one at the bottom. So the question is which way up should my sprocket be fitted when engine at TDC? I have it in my head that with different numbers of teeth on the two sprockets that their relationship will be critical, and that if I fit them 180 out then one may lead the other instead of lagging it – or something, so I want to be certain before I bolt it up. The write up on the vortex site shows the sprocket timing mark at the bottom, but that engine has a pair of simplex chains so is different from mine/ours which has a duplex top chain. And Vince seems to still be on holiday and I don’t want to wait till the new year to do this!

Hope everyone had a good Christmas

Funny thing Jim, but I did think of giving you a call too…….

On the bright side, since my work server has just crashed (again!!!)I’ve come home to check out all the changes to the site instead

:)