The Definitive 4wd Conversion thread

[jonocos 0]

You wont make a car handle by making it 4 wheel drive.You will of course only increase its traction, if you spend the time and effort exploiting the Corrados allready excellent chassis you will create a car more than capable of using 300+ at the front wheels and easily beating 4x4 driven cars in most conditions.

Clever use of geometry,suspsension point relocation,roll bars and making your tyres work properly will surprise even the most committed 4x4 supporter.

20v Turbo race car we have worked on has 330+ and has only quaife diff and trick suspension mods.Rides better than my road car and uses all of its power with little drama.

[bigpants baby 0]

anyone want my Haldex system off of this r32?

[Timo. 0]

enjoying the delights of 4motion then?!

 

Oh yes!!

 

Field + Snow + Bora = :lol:

 

Oh what fun!

 

Loving the beast, shame about fuel comsumption.

 

T.

[biggerbigben 0]

You wont make a car handle by making it 4 wheel drive.You will of course only increase its traction...

 

 

I would have to disagree. Surely if you increase traction, then handling would improve also? Because more traction = more grip. For example; why is it when ever they test an M3 against an Audi S4 and they seem to do it a lot, the Audi looses the straight line race by a fraction but kicks the BMW around the track? Obviously there are many issues involved but the main basic principle is that the Audi is 4wd and the BMW isn’t.

 

With regards to whether a corrado is any good in a 4wd format then PhatVR6 has been lucky enough to drive a 4wd corrado and he swears by it. Not saying he is right but I certainly think that if he thought it was not as good as the normal then he would be the first one to hold up his hand and admit that. Don’t get me wrong, I have been in a few FWD 300bhp+ golfs and they are very capable indeed.

 

I can’t however really comment properly until I have actually driven mine hard. Then I will be able to offer feedback.

 

Ben

[biggerbigneil 0]

Well standing up for BMW....

The last M3 they tested on Top Gear has 340 HP where as the Audi had considerably more from the turbo'd V8. The next M3 (being a V8 will probably kill that S4 around the same track. But then Audi will make a new version and the cycle will continue.

 

F1 cars a RWD, nearly all fast racing cars are RWD.

 

For the money and time involved in converting a FWD car to 4x4 it's worth getting a different car imo unless you have the means to do it all yourself (like Ben) and want something different (also like Ben)

 

Also: -

Everyone knows BMW's are better than Audi's

M1, M3, M5, M6, 3.0 CSL what more do I need to say!

 

Good night, I'm off!

[CoxyLaad 0]

ah but now you are added other things into the mix, F1 cars dont count as they generate monumental levels of downforce, plus whos to say a 4wd one wouldnt be quicker? but they cant do it because have to obey the race regulations.

 

Look at teh british touring cars a few years back. all of them were 2wd, then audi rock up with their quattros and demolish the competition, so the next year the quattro is given a heavy weight penalty, and they still wallop the competition. The year after that 4wd was banned........get out of that one Rommel

[vr6banana 0]

it’s not about the 2wd vs 4wd theory, it’s about the suspension you are limited with if your using all VW parts. so where would the 2wd vs 4wd theory be if you had a choice of a 2wd well setup car or a poorly handling 4wd car, I know the choices are a bit extreme but there would be a big difference in the outcome. Go 4wd by all means but I wouldn’t do it with the Rallye/Syncro rear end, I’d look at using the rear end (suspension, arms and subframe) off an Audi

[CoxyLaad 0]

worth a thought, I iwll do some digging

[GazzaG60 0]

the audi 4wd touring car was setup pro0perly and also light being the ally one. it weight the same or less than the 2wd cars. not really the same comparison where any road 4wd car ive seen is heavier than its 2wd counterpart.

 

4wd creates grip that aids handling in some instances. i still think you would struggle against a setup subaru as the full car was designed for going a-b fast from day 1. however they dont respond to turning quite as fast and so can end up with the rear end out to catch the slide rather than turn. i have mates who wouldn't do any different after a subaru and mates who would.

 

the other thing for me is transmission loss. yes you can get more hp to sort this issue and higher reves create less loss(apparently) but then you have to male the engine hack it.

 

for reference from the start a 300hp subaru will do me by 3-4 cars to 60. freom 40-120 nothing in it. thats with the 65mm pulley G60. thats transmission loss i think for you.

[dr_mat 0]

for reference from the start a 300hp subaru will do me by 3-4 cars to 60. freom 40-120 nothing in it. thats with the 65mm pulley G60. thats transmission loss i think for you.

 

Transmission loss is one factor. The biggest one is more likely to be wind resistance, and the shape of the car, imho. Once you get up to a reasonable speed the difference in power becomes less pronounced than the difference in drag factor. It requires twice as much power to increase your top speed by 10mph, for example.

[biggerbigneil 0]

CoxyLaad,

 

I wasn't meaning to say RWD was better than 4x4 or FWD.

I would rather have 4x4 in this country as the roads and weather suck.

What I meant to put across was, that, BMW is far superior to Audi.

 

I'll get my coat again

[CoxyLaad 0]

the audi 4wd touring car was setup pro0perly and also light being the ally one. it weight the same or less than the 2wd cars. not really the same comparison where any road 4wd car ive seen is heavier than its 2wd counterpart.

 

can you point me to some literature to back this up? as it sounds pretty far fetched to be honest. Do you not think the 2wd cars would be completely stripped and every weight reducing process carried out as well?

Unless they tied helium balloons to the roof of the car i cant seehow this can be true

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Clever use of geometry,suspsension point relocation,roll bars and making your tyres work properly will surprise even the most committed 4x4 supporter.

20v Turbo race car we have worked on has 330+ and has only quaife diff and trick suspension mods.Rides better than my road car and uses all of its power with little drama.

 

Absolutely.

 

One FWD car in particular that sticks in my mind is Maurice Reeve's black MK2 Golf.

 

I was at a Castle Coombe VW/Audi day in 1999 and I blagged a few laps as a passenger in a bright yellow, tuned ABT demo Audi S4 (350hp V6 biturbo with the proper quattro torsen 4WD) and no word of a lie, Maurice Reeves lapped us in his scruffy MK2!

 

When spectating afterwards, he came haring round camp corner faster than any other car I've seen go round the Coombe.....flat out with no tyre squeal at all. He recorded the fastest lap of the day, beating all the 4x4 cars and 911s etc....and Maurice is like, 65-70 years old!!

 

Apart from the 1.8T lump, dog sequential 6 speed box and quaife, the suspension was a mystery, but it was brutally effective. That is where the speed and cornering grip came from, the suspension setup. And his racing knowledge and experience also count for a lot. There were rumours of adjustable wishbones, extended ARB pick up points, pillow ball top mounts etc etc but the exact details were kept secret.

 

I'd love to try a high powered 4x4 Rado, especially in the wet on my favourite testing B roads to see how it compares.

 

On the M3 v Audi S4 thing, the M3 always wins. Evo put the current S4 up against the M3 CSL and the M3 hammered the Audi round their track.

 

There are no hard and fast rules with the amount of wheels driven. Far too many variables to consider. For example, who'd have thought a 2.5 tonne Cayenne Turbo can match an Evo 8's lap time? And who'd have thought a tatty FWD MK2 Golf can lap an Audi S4?

[W3RKD 0]

Maurice Reeves is a legend ! thats his sons mk2 i think and he still has his red mk1 they are both amazing drivers though!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah I remember that MK1 aswell! Maurice was at the helm of the MK2 at the Coombe that day, but him and his son were a formidable pair with their knowledge and experience, and yeah, they are both superb drivers.

 

They were the days... I loved the VW scene in the 90s, so much more laid back and inventive than it is now. Larry Edwards was another bloke with the minerals..... his FWD 16V MK2 turbo obliterated everything on the 1/4s....and again, it was a tatty old banger with choice mods in the right places.....and Jereon Dik's MK1 300hp G60....mega fast....4WD need not apply where these hardcore heros were concerned :-)

[biggerbigben 0]

Yeah I remember that MK1 aswell! Maurice was at the helm of the MK2 at the Coombe that day, but him and his son were a formidable pair with their knowledge and experience, and yeah, they are both superb drivers.

 

They were the days... I loved the VW scene in the 90s, so much more laid back and inventive than it is now. Larry Edwards was another bloke with the minerals..... his FWD 16V MK2 turbo obliterated everything on the 1/4s....and again, it was a tatty old banger with choice mods in the right places.....and Jereon Dik's MK1 300hp G60....mega fast....4WD need not apply where these hardcore heros were concerned :-)

 

Lets not forget the Audi Dylinx Quattro, which acheived 0-60 in under 2.5secs and a sub 10 sec quarter mile and the 600bhp R32 a couple of years ago... :wink:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

That's just the result of a lot of power and light weight (in the Dyalinx's case)..... did you see the Green MK1 turbo at inters last year? that pulled similar times and it was 2WD.

[24V Renshaw 0]

Maurice Reeves is a legend ! thats his sons mk2 i think and he still has his red mk1 they are both amazing drivers though!

 

I remember hearing somewhere the MK1 got written off?? Not sure though. Damn shame if it did. I loved that car!

 

Jay

[biggerbigben 0]

kevHaywire,

 

I didn't see that Mk1 I must admit.. must have been very fast..

 

I think the best example I can think of of a FWD vs 4WD is James's (from jabba) 340bhp FWD IHI'd mk2 golf vs my mate Karl (ex dubsport bronze 20vt, running about 450bhp at the time). They did a number of runs and I think James beat Karl on the day and got a staggering 11.6 1/4 I think.. he was running big slicks on the front, but none the less.. wow!

 

24V Renshaw,

 

Jay, I remember talking to Maurice and Jabba last year when I was there and I think the Mk1 had rusted through and he was looking to re-shell the car. It might have been written off but I think most likely that it hasn't been re-shelled yet! It was pretty rusty when i saw it

[CoxyLaad 0]

would it be the same story if it were a rainy day though?

The dubweiser 20v 5cyl 4wd mk1 is pretty special too.

 

But its horses for courses, and I want something that is competent in all conditions. given an infinite amount of grip a 2wd car will be better, its when that grip starts to disappear through rain/mud, gravel, uneven road surfaces that I belive 4wd will be an improvement.

[Timo. 0]

Thats why you should have 4wd :)

[dr_mat 0]

Well, wet roads tonight proved that I can't put 190 lbft down through the front wheels in 1st gear, even on a relatively smooth, straight piece of road ...

[PhatVR6 0]

you're all taking about rac tracks, where you'd barely drop under 60mph anyway so traction will hardly ever be an issue.

 

I'm tlaking about REAL WORLD driving. which in this country, bean horrible, pot holed, bumpy, and usually wet roads. 2wd isn't enough.

[jonocos 0]

I would have to admit that in the real world on UK roads 4 wheel drive would make more sense.My real point though is that grip and handling are different,just by increasing grip by driving all 4 wheels you do not automatically make the car handle better.It may feel like that but its just hiding the fact that the chassis cannot cope with the power, especiallywhen using a drivetrain that was never developed for the car you are putting it in and is not adjustable enough to be tailored to the car.

 

Installing 4 wheel drive can make a bad car feel good but very rarely makes a great car better.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

its when that grip starts to disappear through rain/mud, gravel, uneven road surfaces that I belive 4wd will be an improvement.

 

Yeah it will be. The most basic example is trying to get up an icy hill. 2WD obvioulsy has half the driven traction and you don't see many 2WD rally cars on gravel stages :-) Although the old MK2 Escort Rally cars were pretty effective!