Megasquirt Standalone Conversions

[CrazyDave 0]

Yeh, quite a bit of that going on out here. Just been for a walk down town and :shock:

[CrazyDave 0]

Did loads more setting up today. Got the idle quite a bit better and finished off the installation and boxed everything up.

 

I decided that it was time for a test drive. Wow, it's so smooth! Only did some light throttle low speed driving and it's great.

 

Took a complete datalog of the whole run and compared it to a VAG-COM log of Motronic. My initial timing setup is a bit reserved so I've modified that and will give it another go tomorrow.

 

On and off throttle transitions feel miles better than Motronic already. Part throttle felt smooth with no jumping or hesitation.

 

Still need to get my EGT probe fitted, but may leave than until the turbo goes on.

 

Got a bit of a dilemma now, because I really need to get the narrowband sensor changed for the wideband so I can get the fueling sorted. But Sunday is the Stealth RR day and it's not really had enough setting up to thrash on the rollers.

[CoxyLaad 0]

mint!

[CrazyDave 0]

Tested the hi-res code today, idle seems more stable and running was even better. Injector timing can be set to three decimal places now. So fueling is much finer, should be good with the big injectors for the turbo at idle.

 

Switched back to the Motronic for the RR day tomorrow. Need more time.

 

I see what you mean now GazzaG60

[GazzaG60 0]

good to see that you got good results.

 

still not in with mine yet so.... expect good results though.

 

id get the egt in mate. too little timing causes lots of heat. this will kill an engine just as quick as too much timing. when the egt is in you will see as you add timing the heat dropping away. we learned that by popping a set of ported headers on a weak spot with heat. 200-300 yards did 900 deg

[CrazyDave 0]

Cheers GazzaG60, going to try and get the wideband and EGT probe in this weekend. I've found a local custom exhaust place that should be able to weld them in-situe to the existing downpipe.

 

I've been reading the setup guides in the MegaManual, cos I'm not convinced the base injector PW is correct. Seems quite rich even with small PW. But it could be the initial injector open time is still too high.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Still need to get my EGT probe fitted, but may leave than until the turbo goes on.

 

I would, then you can tap it into the part of the manifold where all 6 runners converge. Or you could put it on number 1 runner as that cylinder always runs the hottest.

[GazzaG60 0]

i hear that the hi-res code makes the map run richer so it needs a tweak down a tickle to lean it off.

 

fit the egt as close to the flange of no 1 runner as possible.

 

id fit it now. no point guessing until you fit a turbo.

[CrazyDave 0]

MegaSquirt progress this weekend:

 

Innovate LC-1 wideband fitted and calibrated to the MS ECU. And wired into a suitable igntion feed from the fuse board (no silly ciggy plug any more).

 

I needed to get the ignition timing better so I've been doing lots of logging of Motronic with VAG-COM, just to get an idea. I converted the key RPM sites and did some rough guessing of MAP compared to TPS (as TPS is all Motronic 2.9 has available). This gave a pretty safe ignition map to run with.

 

Changed the injector wiring. The injectors had been split in banks (near and far on the VR). But the sequencing of the fueling works better if you follow firing order, so you end up with INJ A wired to 1,2,3 and INJ B wired to 4,5,6. This was much better when running alternating injection, 2 squirts per cycle as the cylinders needing the fuel got it! Injectors are now running at about 3.9ms at idle.

 

Tried the idle valve at 100Hz control. Still not ideal, in fact worse as the control resolution was coarse and in some conditions even the the idle output was at a fixed value the valve was moving a small amount causing the idle to hunt. So went back to 50Hz and did some tuning, now stable but needs more work. I may add a board of my own design to improve the PWM control of the valve with proper PID and feed forward. Or cheat and wind the idle screw for the base setting and only use the ISV for warmup?

 

Drove the car for about 1-2 hours and did some auto-tuning of low load conditions (30% TPS and below 3500rpm). Car was initially a bit rough, but within 10 minutes it was smooth. Did a few runs with 70% throttle to 4k rpm and checked the logs for AFR. Running nice at about 13. Pulled really strong and felt like it wanted more. Traffic manners brilliant, non of that Motronic stuttering in gear, low rpm, part throttle stuff that you have to drive around.

 

Did a cold start tonight after leaving the car for 4 hours, started idled and drove well right through warmup (no stalling!).

 

I'll post some pics up when I've cleaned up the maps a bit.

 

I'm going for the full drive to work tomorrow, hopefully without needing the laptop on the passenger seat :) .

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Sounds like it's coming along well mate, nice one 8)

 

Got all this fun to come with the DTA.....

 

I'm not bothering with an idle valve though, I'm just going to use the cheaty method :-)

[Yandards 0]

Just goes to show what gains can be had by using improved engine managment.

[CrazyDave 0]

Did the run to work with MegaSquirt today.

 

Full cold start. Idled fine, warmed up without any problems. Drive to work was smooth and event free, even in the traffic.

 

Only small problem, idle dipping to about 500rpm every now and again.

 

I've added a ridge to the ignition map at 500 RPM of 14 degrees advance in addition to the flat spot from 700rpm to 900rpm with 6 degrees. This give a flat idle area and the ridge stops the engine speed dipping below 700rpm. Tested it tonight and it does the job, no more dipping idle.

 

Kev, you'll have lots of fun setting up. Can get pretty frustrating at times. But if Bill gives you a good start, the bad bit is done already. Having full control of everything has lots of advantages. The only way forward for me!

 

Yanards, I reckon if anybody has a modified car that doesn't run correctly this is a pretty good way to get it sorted. Mine is definately way better than standard already, after about 3 days of running in autotune.

[CoxyLaad 0]

any idea what the effect on fuel economy has been?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Kev, you'll have lots of fun setting up. Can get pretty frustrating at times. But if Bill gives you a good start, the bad bit is done already. Having full control of everything has lots of advantages. The only way forward for me!

 

Yeah Bill has done the core configuration already. All I need to do is program the LC-1's Wideband analog output and trim the idle and boost fuelling and that's it.

 

I'm not using Knock control as apparently forged piston resonance triggers the sensors, LOL!! I'm using A/F and EGT instead.

 

The DTA does have full PWM idle control which has been massively improved in the latest version (v35.2) but I'll see how I get on with throttle stop + fuel adjustments first.

[CrazyDave 0]

any idea what the effect on fuel economy has been?

 

Well it's only been a few days, so I've only done 100 ish miles in total. But I did notice that when I'd used 1/4 of a tank from full the mileage was reading 84. Now I now this isn't very scientific but I normally get about 90 ish from a 1/4 tank with my going to work driving style and traffic etc. So it's not down a great deal on standard.

 

I'm also running a slightly rich AFR target map for my tuning so that it's on the 'safe' side. The injector cut feature is switched on for closed throttle above 2000rpm.

 

Not bad really?

 

 

 

Yeah Bill has done the core configuration already. All I need to do is program the LC-1's Wideband analog output and trim the idle and boost fuelling and that's it.

 

I'm not using Knock control as apparently forged piston resonance triggers the sensors, LOL!! I'm using A/F and EGT instead.

 

The DTA does have full PWM idle control which has been massively improved in the latest version (v35.2) but I'll see how I get on with throttle stop + fuel adjustments first.

 

Normal running should be pretty much spot on then. Although what I'm really liking is that you can tune the response and drivability of the engine to how YOU want it, not how the emissions like it.

 

Knock is connected on mine but not being used yet. Currently enjoying ignition timing staying were its been put :lol: .

 

After quite a bit of looking at idle stuff, it seems the main problem is that decent idle needs two things. A good valve or most likely a stepper throttle and ignition trimmed idle. Valves just don't move fast enough to catch idle speed on their own if the fans cut in etc, so you always get a dip. I haven't tried the throttle stop one yet, but it's on the list!

 

I switched back to Motronic tonight to get a feel for how different it was, and it's really different.

 

Have you ever noticed when cruising on light throttle how when backing out the engine hangs on for a little bit and then decels? Makes gear shifting a little strange because the engine speed isn't quite dropping quickly enough. Well with squirt its adjustable (and DTA), so gear shifts suddenly become that little bit crisper.

 

Bottom end grunt is miles better with squirt, mainly due to the ignition not being pulled out from underneath you I suspect.

 

I do need to do more work on the just off idle settings, I have a slight hesitance at about 950ish rpm. So I'll look into that.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

This is all music to my ears Dave :lol:

 

I'm glad you've experimented on a stock engine with a standalone first, rather than simply having to due to mods, as I've done.

 

I'm glad you mentioned the improved bottom end because I was never convinced a 2.9 12V engine should feel that gutless below 3000rpm! Even our monster 1.4 Rover out pulls a standard VR off the line with consumate ease, and that just isn't right. I always suspected it was management, and always knew OBD1 was cr@p anyway. Too slow as you say.

 

OBD2 is a squillion times better and you're right, stepper throttles are the way to go. The revs never plummet like a brick and need catching as per OBD1, they just drop and hold steady as a rock every single time.

 

In fact, I think I'm going to figure out a way of using the OBD2's throttle pot and stepper idle control with a combination of both the stock and DTA Ecus running in tandem, LOL! :lol:

[CrazyDave 0]

Been ask several questions by forum members lately, so I thought I'd change the title of this thread and update it a little.

 

MegaSquirt will work fine on pretty much any car. It's design takes into account a large array of sensors and types by changing a few links and components on the main circuit board.

 

The manuals are very extensive and can be confusing because they have so many variations of configuration.

 

So to try and narrow it down a bit for anybody thinking about doing this, here goes!

 

Although this example is based around my experience of converting a VR6 with coilpack. It will also work with the following.

 

VR6 with Dizzy

Quite a bit of confusion on Vortex etc about fitting MS to these. The dizzy only has one trigger on it's wheel. So you get talk of making a new six slot trigger etc etc. The dizzy signal is used as a cam sensor, just like the separate one on the later VR's.

 

MS can be fitted straight onto a dizzy car. The crank sensor can be connected directly to the MS and the dizzy will distribute the spark as normal. Connect up the fuel injectors in firing order. Connect the outputs for the fuel pump and motronic relay. Throttle position, coolant, inlet air all connect directly.

 

16V

The standard dizzy can be used. The trigger signal can be connected to MS without a problem.

 

Some work will be needed on the fuel side. Pretty much all Corrado's are based on K or LE jetronic (correct me if I'm wrong), so they have a metering head and lots of mechanical pressure regulating stuff. For MS you'll need to sort out new fuel injectors (digifant would be ideal or 20vt etc), a fuel rail with pressure relief valve and throttle position sensor. Audi quattro's are a good source for the throttle body with potentiometer, or some auto models of Passat. ISV will connect with a driver board.

 

G60 These are pretty straight forward as they have digifant already. Engine sensors etc etc all connect directly. Still need a potentiometer throttle body (eg Passat etc as above for 16v - Cheers GazzaG60! for spotting my mistake.).

 

Time permiting I'll try and get a few sketches together for different configurations.

 

 

Thats it for now. 8)

[blue95 0]

Any guideance would be awsome!!!!

 

There are probably alot of people here that want to go the MS route, but just aren't that confident with the elctronic side of tuning.

[GazzaG60 0]

what dave says above but on the G60 you need a passat G60 tB or auto with the TPS as the G60 only uses switches. you need to run mapDOT on the ECU instead of TPS DOT with the standard G60 TB.

 

dependant on board type (ms board) you will benifit from the ignition module fitted to normal 16v cars as this is the best way to convert ms to msns. on a G60 this ignition control is built into the ECU. with ms you need the module toi do things right on v2.2

 

if you want to run the isv. o29q is handy for both hi res code(bigger injectors) and isv control. you need a tpp122 and heatsink insatead of fidle to control the soleniod speed of the isv properly.

[CrazyDave 0]

what dave says above but on the G60 you need a passat G60 tB or auto with the TPS as the G60 only uses switches. you need to run mapDOT on the ECU instead of TPS DOT with the standard G60 TB.

 

dependant on board type (ms board) you will benifit from the ignition module fitted to normal 16v cars as this is the best way to convert ms to msns. on a G60 this ignition control is built into the ECU. with ms you need the module toi do things right on v2.2

 

if you want to run the isv. o29q is handy for both hi res code(bigger injectors) and isv control. you need a tpp122 and heatsink insatead of fidle to control the soleniod speed of the isv properly.

 

As Gazza points out, not only do you have to sort out some wiring, MS has numerous software versions. The MS_Extra hi res code is pretty the one to go for, gives much better running and as long as you have high-impedance injectors (most VW ones are) this will be fine.

 

I used the glens driver board for my ISV, it did need a further mod but worked out nicely for fitting. You can just fit the tip122 transistor to the V3 board and that will do the same thing.

 

Trouble is when I read all this back it still sounds confusing? Maybe some drawings will help. :)

[GazzaG60 0]

im not really electronically minded to the extent of resistoprs transistor etc. the beauty of MS is the support and plenty of nice people who can help.

its all about doing the most research you can first before asking questions otherwise help isn't always at hand

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Do you actually need the ISV though?

 

I've not bothered and it idles fine. I dialled in some extra timing and fuel in the 501rpm cell, which behaves like a throttle damper. If the revs should ever drop real quick, the fuel and spark "padding" lifts the revs back up again. 9 times out of 10 when pulling up to junctions, it behaves like stock. I suppose the ISV does give some consistency to the idle quality and Mondeo ones are good to use as they're reliable, cheap and easily run from most standalones.

 

Oh and not sure if I said this already Dave, but when you run the turbo, knock the coil-on-time up to 3000 micro seconds. Solves the high rpm break up. And some NGK V groove plugs (8 grade) recommended too ;-)

[GazzaG60 0]

depends on how picky about idle you are i suppose and the isv aint that great anyway.

 

I have no isv on my G60 and its fine even in this cold snap.

 

ill use a timing trough too kev for idle to an extent. i have a 02m spec clutches alloy flywheel so i may need it to catch. currentyl working on trying ot mount the VR throttle damper to the 'stang body im gonna use.

 

BK7re are the plug of choice for me. bout 1.90 each.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Indeed, so long as it doesn't cut out that's good enough for me :-)

 

I still need to work on my cold start fuelling as it's far too rich for far too long, maybe the water temp sender has gone.....quite common that.

 

How big is the Mustang body? I'm actually going to take off my 30% larger big bore VR throttle and put the standard one back on to improve low rpm pickup. Short runners then to rob a little a torque....

 

I use the V power copper NGKs.....a buck 50c each :-)

[GazzaG60 0]

the stang is 75mm. the vr one fits inside it no worries as does the subaru one i planned to use originally. there is a picture in my post on the conversion of it.

 

i only paid bout 60 quid for it brand new with a throttle pot. i got a vr one to to try if i cant get more than 20mpg from the stang

never used the v powers. im a big fan of cheap plugs as a plug is a plug as long as its gapped properly. i prefer copper for its resilience too over irids or plats.

 

not sure how DTA works but can you change the sensor bottom point up a fraction so it misses the very low cold fueling. either that or alter the map which is the proper way.

 

nice to hear you get traction. i hope i do.