The Forced Induction 16V Thread

[LowG 0]

400 at the wheels from 13psi? Which turbo/Honda?

 

Bill Schimmel has broken Quaife gearsets, they're not very strong at all and they don't come with a warranty either. The only gearset he's found that holds is a straight cut set from the Czech republic.

 

Gemini were the best boxes for VWs, but sadly no longer made as Ricardo took them over a few years ago.

 

Turbos range anythign from precision sc61, gt30-35r, t61 ect. They can produce high hp with low boost due to their ability to have healthy volumetric efficiency. Good flow and high rpms and appropriate turbo produce huge hp.

 

Has he actually tested the quaife 02m box? The 02a quaife is known to be weaker.

 

Well the G Force gears have been run in the 9 sec corrado with 750whp or so, apparently they will handle all the torque a VR6 will throw at them too :-P

[pacificshack 0]

Great thread! So from what I have been reading I can convert my 1990 1.8i 16v with a KR engine?

 

This has got me thinking about either a 1.8T transplant or using the same block. If I do use the same block and want to achieve about 350 hp, what sort of cost am I looking at and also would I need to change over the gear box to one from a TDI? What would you recommend? Do I need to put a 2l block on first?

[LowG 0]

Great thread! So from what I have been reading I can convert my 1990 1.8i 16v with a KR engine?

 

This has got me thinking about either a 1.8T transplant or using the same block. If I do use the same block and want to achieve about 350 hp, what sort of cost am I looking at and also would I need to change over the gear box to one from a TDI? What would you recommend? Do I need to put a 2l block on first?

 

To have a reliable engine with 350hp you will need to remove your old pistons and conrods and replace them with forged ones, this is the case with your KR engine or the 1.8T you might be thinking.

 

The idea is that if you are looking to achieve 350hp means your turbocharger has to be a bit large, this means will have a bit of lag. The benefit of a bigger capacity engine relates to its ability to spool the bigger turbocharger and make boost/power sooner. So to your question of puting a 2L in I would say it might be a good idea to do so, you will change your powerband if you do meaning less lag more power in early revs and top end, you also have the option of going overbore making your 2l into almost to a 2.1.

 

Now when it comes to gearbox ratios the TDi gears are not the perfect solution, the ratios are way too long for what you need the car to be. You also have to take into account the spooling of the turbo, if gears are too long your rpms will increase slower meaning turbo will spool slower.

 

You have to find the right balance, if you are going to stay with your 02a box I would do gear 1-2 from VR6 and a 3.63 final drive, you can rev a 16 valve to 7500rpm reliably with good valve springs, that means with those gear ratios you should be doing around 70mph in second gear and 105 in 3rd.

 

I believe the 02a will take the 350hp abuse but will also depend on how you drive/launch the car road type ect.

 

I wold say find a 2l block and bore it out, install forged/larger pistons and conrods with around 9:1 compression you should be good to make good power.

 

For the gearbox I would say if you keep the 02a, the 16v box has a 3.9 final drive, shorter gears not very ideal when you have 350hp, the G60 box has 3.6 final drive, better than 16v but too short 1-2, a balance between the VR6 and G60 would give you the right box or a VR6 box with a 3.6 final drive. Whatever box you use you need to put an LSD in it.

 

Hope that makes it easier for you to decide, if you not clear about it we are here to help :)

[The Hub 0]

Great info in this thread LowG, do you have an approx figure it would take to turbo a 16v.

Say I was to find a low milage 2l block have it delivered to you for any work to be carried out, and then come and have it fitted. I have been thinking about this but reckon I will under cost or miss something important that I need. How long would the install take ? Thanks

[blue95 0]

Oil consumption isnt that bad as people think, when you go from NA to turbo specially ball bearing turbos which are also watercooled you get a quicker warmup time. With a thermostated sandwich plate for oil cooler you should be ok with warmups.

 

Most of the time when you go forged pistons and turbocharged you find an increased oil consumption, one cause is the pistons of course that have to be run bit loose and the other is blowby caused by boost. Specially on a 16v the cylinder head does not have a breather. If you run boost through it the pressure increase will cause oil to leak through the valve steam seals and into your combustion chamber or into your intake if your breather system feeds back into the intake pipe, you will see a big black smoke cloud behind you lol.

So another pointer for 16vt guys, breathe your heads by installing a breather plastic box that goes where the oil cap goes onto, you can buy it from VAG its a breather box from a new beatle i think its around 7 pounds or so. Part number on pic are correct i think.

 

 

 

Just had a quick question to anyone who has fitted this breather. I picked one up from the wayside today and mine seems to have two pipes coming of it.

 

One from the front (as per pic) and one to the rear. In line with the front, both pipes are inline and you can see through them! Don't have a camera, but will try and post up some pics

 

Part number for the bits was 06A 103 465 D (this was for breather and gasket). VAGCAT shows this item with 1 outlet as well!

 

Have I got the wrong item? Also with venting to air, do you get any oil smells in the car?

 

Thanks

[LowG 0]

Great info in this thread LowG, do you have an approx figure it would take to turbo a 16v.

Say I was to find a low milage 2l block have it delivered to you for any work to be carried out, and then come and have it fitted. I have been thinking about this but reckon I will under cost or miss something important that I need. How long would the install take ? Thanks

 

To do a 16v turbo you would need to take into account some of these parts.

 

ECU

Pistons/Conrods

Headstuds

Turbo

Downpipe/exhaust

Manifold(exhaust)

Intake (short style)

Race Headstuds

Intercooler/piping

Bov

 

What sort of budget do you have to go towards this project? You could cut expenses if you use a G60 ecu, use a non ballbearing turbo.

 

To build the block you are looking at 730 in parts plus labour. Please contact me if you want to dicuss this further as im not sure you are allowed to discuss it on open forum.

 

Regards

 

Miguel

[vwdeviant 0]

LowG, Ah gowon, gowan gowan gowan! ;)

[tut_gareth 0]

I'm having a go at rebuilding the engine my self, i'm keeping it 1.8 Kr, but am fitting LC pistons

can anyone tell me the best place to get bits like :

 

new oil pump

bearings

shells

cam followers

timing chains

headbolts

gaskets

etc,etc

 

can you think of anything else that might be needed?

 

cheers

[ben16v 0]

what you guys think about the kits from these guys

 

http://www.ame-racing.de

 

http://www.huber-rennsporttechnik.de/

 

for about 2k you get a lot with optional upgrades

 

but i dont really understand any german...

 

or engines :lol:

[GazzaG60 0]

dont buy as kit. put the kit together yourself.

 

 

youll get better bits at a cheaper cost. i am yet to see a kit that just bolts on and fits.

 

you need

 

turbo

manifold

wastegate

reduced compression

ideally a short runner inlet but not essential.

something to tune it with (properly) THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF ALL

exhaust

inercooler.

 

ideals

 

wideband

boost gauge

EGT gauge

oil pressure gauge.

 

TUT_gareth - get the bits from GSF or ECP. make sure you get 4 piece thrusts for the crank. headbolts need replacing with ARP undercut studs (summit racing). on standard rods use arp ford 289 bolts (std) they fit fine and are half the cost. if the pistons are bigger you need a bore and hone. take the pistons along to the shop with you and each bore should be done to match each piston.

 

for your parts speak to paul at the boostfactory. he will give you the best advice and the best prices.

[Dec 1]

I've been searching about for somewhere that can supply/make a new downpipe from the turbo for my 16v. Anyone know of any places?

[GazzaG60 0]

jp exhausts in mac can but its a fair drive for you

[Dec 1]

Cheers! Looks good!...About three hours drive away tho!

 

They do deliver. So I could give them the specs I guess.....may be a bit risky getting perfect fit tho.

[GazzaG60 0]

they custom made my G60 system about 5 years ago. i know they made henny's too.

 

they used to produce the systems that my mates old company did for subarus. made 4o oddhp with no other mods over a standard subaru and thats only 2.5"

 

id suggest a 3" downpipe and straight thru id you can otherwise 2.5 from the downpipe back. not as much gas speed in the rest of the system to disperse so 2.5 is up to it especially if you run open wastegate.

 

only downside is they down do 3inch as far as im aware.

[tut_gareth 0]

Cheers GazzaG60. i'm going to check out GSF at the weekend.

 

Does any body know if oil cooling system parts are useable from an audi S2 20v engine on the kr block? ( been told its a 16v block with an extra cylinder)

[mrbeige 0]

Had a discussion with vwdeviant yesterday about where to take the oil feed from for the turbo. I thought from the the oil pump, but Jon reckoned that could cause issues. Where would you guys suggest?

[blue95 0]

Hey dude!

 

Try the back of the head! where the oil temp sensor for the MFA goes.

 

Nice and close to the turbo too!

[GazzaG60 0]

mfa port for sure. or top of filter housing with a t-piece.

 

as for oil coolers, id get a mocal unit, tried and tested. the s2 stuff is ok but i d make up my own so piping is better.

 

the s2 is very similar to the kr. the oil system is basically the same for 1.8 and 2l. the S2 engine is lovely by the way, the turbo is crap, way too small but the engine is smoother than most ive driven before and low end is far better than any vw ive driven. cant help but think what my 16vt would have been like.

 

use a 2l block if you can. the rods are stronger for starters and the extra bore helps. you can only bore a 1.8 so far until you upset the oil squirters.

[blue95 0]

mfa port for sure. or top of filter housing with a t-piece.

 

as for oil coolers, id get a mocal unit, tried and tested. the s2 stuff is ok but i d make up my own so piping is better.

 

the s2 is very similar to the kr. the oil system is basically the same for 1.8 and 2l. the S2 engine is lovely by the way, the turbo is crap, way too small but the engine is smoother than most ive driven before and low end is far better than any vw ive driven. cant help but think what my 16vt would have been like.

 

use a 2l block if you can. the rods are stronger for starters and the extra bore helps. you can only bore a 1.8 so far until you upset the oil squirters.

 

 

For a mildy boosted application the K24 turbo should be ok, shouldnt they?

[GazzaG60 0]

id use it to prop the garage door open.

 

what do you call mild boost.

 

see a 3082 will make 350hp ish at 1 bar whereas a k24 may never make that and may only make 260ish at 1 bar.

 

for me mild is upto a bar where stacked gaskets and digi 1 can be used effectively. as you see 1 bar isnt 1bar.

 

character wise you may see a torque spike at around 3k on the k24. this will cause wheelspin and maybe break the box. the bigger turbo will have a more gradual build of torque and so spikes are far less common. this helps keep gearboxes together.

 

the other angle is heat. a k24 at 1bar or more will be far hotter than a bigger unit as it is less efficient as it has to stack more air. this means a bigger cooler is needed which will have a greater pressure drop in general. its all about balance and trade-off.

 

the last point is futureproofing. the bigger unit will flow 600hp so if your build is good you cvan just wind up the boost and tune for it. with a kkk you would need a turbo, manifold and exhaust mods minimum to bolt up a garret.

 

kkk=throw away.

[mrbeige 0]

cant help but think what my 16vt would have been like.

 

You not building yours now then?

 

As for the oil temp sensor location isn't that at the back of the block on the right hand side, just below the head?

[blue95 0]

LOL :lol:

 

I am evetually looking to turbo charge and wanted arround 220+ (nothing mental!)

 

Cost is an issue, also I have good access to S2 parts. You can pick up S2 manifold, wastage, K24 turbo, downpipe etc for peanuts as there are so many S2 being broken.

 

I understabd what you are saying about furture proofing and the effciency of newer turbos, but won't this add a significant cost? especiall if you want to past the 300bhp barrier .e.g. forged pistons etc?

[blue95 0]

cant help but think what my 16vt would have been like.

 

You not building yours now then?

 

As for the oil temp sensor location isn't that at the back of the block on the right hand side, just below the head?

 

 

Think it is actually on the back of the head, side nearest to the gearbox, you can see sensor/wires sticking out

[Dec 1]

Yup it's right at the top of the head! I got myself a little t-piece so I can keep the mfa temp sensor too!

 

Unfort I managed to screw the sensor in too tightly and snapped half of it off inside the t-piece! So now I have to go and extract the silly thing! :roll:

[GazzaG60 0]

my corrado got written off a few weeks ago.

 

i was not too far off completion, bout 1 month. and getting ready to install.

 

ive since bought an N plate S2. i thought about another corrado but by the time id have fitted a diff to the 02m and had the head done to race spec id have been on more than s2 money with the usual corrado/fwd issues. still love my Cs though which is why i still come here, also more willing to share what i learned sooner as im not doing mine.

 

my mate has taken quite a few of the bits i had ready for his abf mk3. we plan to build that this summer. hes going for 300 to start. i expect he wont be happy with that as his old subaru was around the 400 mark and the one we are building at present for an old customer of his should make 600.

 

i still have some parts, mainly engines and boxes, cylinder heads etc.

 

i have a built block (9a) and a head to match with 2 ex cams in still around somewhere. ive sold most of my other stuff though.

 

9a pistons are good for 350-400. 350 easy. rods too. its all in a good tune to be honest to keep even built blocks alive

 

i paid £950 dollars for turbo wastegate, proper exhaust manifold, injectors, hoses for oil feeds and pistons. rods cost me £200. the pistons were £260. thats scats and wisecos block cost around 700 quid to complete including shells, oil pump, water pump, crank polished, individual bores to match piston size exactly and sleeve of cyl 1