The Forced Induction 16V Thread

[dirtytorque 0]

:lol:

 

Well this is high octane stuff.

I don't want to get personal I don't want to say anything on a forum that I wouldn't say straight to someones face.

 

The only thing that annoys me is the idea that I maybe somewhat deluded in terms of what I might be getting from choosing a certain package.

I would never agrue that a supercharger is going to give you better out and out power than a turbo and I probably will go down that road myself oneday.However right now I am happy chasing modest power from my G.

I really don't need to see any light.

It hurts my eyes,they're sensitive. :camp:

[dirtytorque 0]

Exactly its a discussion of all forced induction, in my eyes some people bang on and on about superchargers but i dont complain half as much as you do about people discussing turbos.

 

Exactly, I'm in no rush to strap a magnesium grenade to the front of my engine with a pulley far too small.

 

/stops stiring.....

 

Too late.

 

I know where you live.

don't make me wake up the gimp.

[CTWG60 0]

Exactly its a discussion of all forced induction, in my eyes some people bang on and on about superchargers but i dont complain half as much as you do about people discussing turbos.

 

Whatever buddy. :salute:

 

I'll have to restrain myself from saying anymore I'm afraid. :ignore:

[junkie 0]

:lol:

 

Well this is high octane stuff.

I don't want to get personal I don't want to say anything on a forum that I wouldn't say straight to someones face.

 

The only thing that annoys me is the idea that I maybe somewhat deluded in terms of what I might be getting from choosing a certain package.

I would never agrue that a supercharger is going to give you better out and out power than a turbo and I probably will go down that road myself oneday.However right now I am happy chasing modest power from my G.

I really don't need to see any light.

It hurts my eyes,they're sensitive. :camp:

 

I think you have me all wrong to be honest Rob, now im not saying you should go turbo now and i dont deny both have their ups and downs and im just trying to have fun as quite alot of the time on here there seems to be that element missing, my comment of "seeing the light" was meant to be light hearted ribbing between the supercharger and turbo boys but some people seem blind to that fact. However having been down both roads of using various methods of forced induction i can only voice my opinions, sometimes yes they are not asked for but otherwise it would make for a very boring world we live in.

 

Whatever buddy. :salute:

 

I'll have to restrain myself from saying anymore I'm afraid. :ignore:

 

Im glad we can agree on something :lol: Enough of all this like you say mate no hard feelings and let the forced 16v discussion commence once more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can concur once and for all TUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUBO FTW :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Toad 0]

Exactly its a discussion of all forced induction, in my eyes some people bang on and on about superchargers but i dont complain half as much as you do about people discussing turbos.

 

Exactly, I'm in no rush to strap a magnesium grenade to the front of my engine with a pulley far too small.

 

/stops stiring.....

 

Too late.

 

I know where you live.

don't make me wake up the gimp.

 

:) Hehe.

 

Looking forward to catching up again.

[Toad 0]

:lol:

 

Well this is high octane stuff.

I don't want to get personal I don't want to say anything on a forum that I wouldn't say straight to someones face.

 

The only thing that annoys me is the idea that I maybe somewhat deluded in terms of what I might be getting from choosing a certain package.

I would never agrue that a supercharger is going to give you better out and out power than a turbo and I probably will go down that road myself oneday.However right now I am happy chasing modest power from my G.

I really don't need to see any light.

It hurts my eyes,they're sensitive. :camp:

 

;)

 

TBH, I don't think anyone is trying to tell you anything you don't know Rob, you've clearly spent a lot of time thinking about and building your car. You were also alongside me in Simons car when my buttocks tried to consume his back seat and know what 350lbft feels like. When I finally start to build a 16vt, I'm looking for 250lbft and 250bhp to start with, then think about building up.

[boost monkey 0]

I'm looking for 250lbft and 250bhp to start with, then think about building up.

 

Said the crackhead to the dealer :lol: :lol: :lol:

[junkie 0]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :clap: :notworthy:

[dirtytorque 0]

 

. You were also alongside me in Simons car when my buttocks tried to consume his back seat and know what 350lbft feels like. When I finally start to build a 16vt, I'm looking for 250lbft and 250bhp to start with, then think about building up.

 

 

 

I was truly scared.

:)

 

I Will look forward to seeing the valver get its new lungs at some point.

:salute:

[LowG 0]

The anti turbo movement :lol:

 

Turbo-ing a 16v is the best thing you could do to it really, I have found best hp for pound is easiest achieved by using a turbo.

 

I have tested the 16v with the G60 charger, lysholm compressor and turbocharger, you can guess what I use...

Turbo vs charger is a never ending debate but without going to extremes a turbo system will be cheaper and yield more power.

Reliability on on turbo valver should not be an issue if done right.

[CTWG60 0]

The anti turbo movement :lol:

 

Turbo-ing a 16v is the best thing you could do to it really, I have found best hp for pound is easiest achieved by using a turbo.

 

I have tested the 16v with the G60 charger, lysholm compressor and turbocharger, you can guess what I use...

Turbo vs charger is a never ending debate but without going to extremes a turbo system will be cheaper and yield more power.

Reliability on on turbo valver should not be an issue if done right.

 

Can you tell us all a bit more about the downsides of a turbo in a corrado engine bay? I'm not anti turbo I too think a 16v turbo VW is a good idea but some people would prefer to do something different or less common purely because they enjoy the challenge or the engineering or the unknown/uncertainty or the end result.

 

I'd be really interested to hear what the difficulties are in running a turbo at the back of an engine where there is not much air movement and lots of things to get hot like the steering U-J boot the wiring loom running over the back of the bulkhead, the windscreen washer jet pipes, etc. What about the engine mounts required to hold on to an engine producing over 300lb/ft in an sudden rush over say 500-1000 rpm, do they cause excessive noise and vibration or other problems.

 

These are things that rarely get discussed.

[boost monkey 0]

Turbo application has been talked about (see page 2 of this thread initially and subsequent pages - LowG has posted a very comprehensive list of turbo applications with drawbacks and benefits). There are a few turbos that can be applied to the 16v engine which give very linear increases in torque and power, and aren't as "spiky" as you may think.

 

As for wiring and wiper jet pipes - rerouting wiring isn't a massive issue, and your windscreen will be even cleaner if the washer fluid is hot! :nuts:

 

Steering U/J could be an issue. Perhaps a channel of aluminium tubing to reflect heat? Could be a possible solution.

 

I don't like the idea of a hot bulkhead either, but there are always things that can be done.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I'd be really interested to hear what the difficulties are in running a turbo at the back of an engine where there is not much air movement and lots of things to get hot like the steering U-J boot the wiring loom running over the back of the bulkhead, the windscreen washer jet pipes, etc. What about the engine mounts required to hold on to an engine producing over 300lb/ft in an sudden rush over say 500-1000 rpm, do they cause excessive noise and vibration or other problems.

 

There are no issues with these things, if the job is done properly.

Over 18 months of daily VRT use, I've had no issues in these areas at all, and my turbo is an inch away from the steering UJ. I think if a 2.8 - 3.0 VR6 turbo can survive in a Corrado engine bay, a 16V T has positively acres of room to breathe.

 

These are things that rarely get discussed.

 

All aspects of VR6T ownership, warts and all, arem frequently mentioned by the VRT owners on here.

[CTWG60 0]

I'd be really interested to hear what the difficulties are in running a turbo at the back of an engine where there is not much air movement and lots of things to get hot like the steering U-J boot the wiring loom running over the back of the bulkhead, the windscreen washer jet pipes, etc. What about the engine mounts required to hold on to an engine producing over 300lb/ft in an sudden rush over say 500-1000 rpm, do they cause excessive noise and vibration or other problems.

 

There are no issues with these things, if the job is done properly.

Over 18 months of daily VRT use, I've had no issues in these areas at all, and my turbo is an inch away from the steering UJ. I think if a 2.8 - 3.0 VR6 turbo can survive in a Corrado engine bay, a 16V T has positively acres of room to breathe.

 

These are things that rarely get discussed.

 

All aspects of VR6T ownership, warts and all, arem frequently mentioned by the VRT owners on here.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I do remember you posting on here somewhere your interest in a carbon fibre bonnet with vents in it to get rid of some of the turbo heat as stuff was melting. :scratch:

[LowG 0]

 

Can you tell us all a bit more about the downsides of a turbo in a corrado engine bay? I'm not anti turbo I too think a 16v turbo VW is a good idea but some people would prefer to do something different or less common purely because they enjoy the challenge or the engineering or the unknown/uncertainty or the end result.

 

I'd be really interested to hear what the difficulties are in running a turbo at the back of an engine where there is not much air movement and lots of things to get hot like the steering U-J boot the wiring loom running over the back of the bulkhead, the windscreen washer jet pipes, etc. What about the engine mounts required to hold on to an engine producing over 300lb/ft in an sudden rush over say 500-1000 rpm, do they cause excessive noise and vibration or other problems.

 

These are things that rarely get discussed.

 

I dont really see a downside to putting a turbo at the back of your engine, if you are prepared to invest the money in good quality parts and enjoy the extra power there is no issues.

 

Im all in for new things and trying different stuff, you could get a 16v run nicely on a lysholm but not on the small version that BBM offer. You have to then think about the extra noise ect and the ability to to change settings ie vary boost ect. You must mount the lysholm properly otherwise they can seize.

The other issue is that chargers are not as easy to get hold of and you cant really spec them out more custom to you particular needs, theres not much market out there to so you only have a few brands you could chose from, think about warranty on product offered too.

 

Turbos are much easy to spec to your needs, customize, rebuilt and are readily available.

Then you have to think about the engines ability, you can make a 16v flow well and rev to 8000rpm with few valvetrain components ie springs/retainers. If you have good flow you have quick spoolup and can make very good power. Engine will also rev easier on those high revs as you wont have a charger strapped to it.

 

In terms of having a hot turbo near the firewall thats not an issue really, you can use things like heatwrap tape to protect all your wiring back there, turbo bag to cover the turbo hotside, ceramic coatings on the turbo hotside, firewall aluminium barrier, exhaust wrap on the manifold and downpipe, if your downpipe is too close to engine mount then just make a shield for it. All these products are not that expensive either. I like to raise the back of the bonnet with a few washers, this acts as a huge vent.

 

There is no reason engine mounts will suffer from a turbo, if you are making good power you will most likley change your mounts to stronger ones regardless of how you boost your engine. Mounts can be damaged more by improper launch of car or clutch release/driving style than by turbo spool up. If you need additional engine stability an engine damper can also help.

 

I think some of these issues have made most VR6 owners switch from supercharged to turbo, or maybe they are just power hungry :lol: .

[LowG 0]

 

Can you tell us all a bit more about the downsides of a turbo in a corrado engine bay? I'm not anti turbo I too think a 16v turbo VW is a good idea but some people would prefer to do something different or less common purely because they enjoy the challenge or the engineering or the unknown/uncertainty or the end result.

 

I'd be really interested to hear what the difficulties are in running a turbo at the back of an engine where there is not much air movement and lots of things to get hot like the steering U-J boot the wiring loom running over the back of the bulkhead, the windscreen washer jet pipes, etc. What about the engine mounts required to hold on to an engine producing over 300lb/ft in an sudden rush over say 500-1000 rpm, do they cause excessive noise and vibration or other problems.

 

These are things that rarely get discussed.

 

I dont really see a downside to putting a turbo at the back of your engine, if you are prepared to invest the money in good quality parts and enjoy the extra power there is no issues.

 

Im all in for new things and trying different stuff, you could get a 16v run nicely on a lysholm but not on the small version that BBM offer. You have to then think about the extra noise ect and the ability to to change settings ie vary boost ect. You must mount the lysholm properly otherwise they can seize.

The other issue is that chargers are not as easy to get hold of and you cant really spec them out more custom to you particular needs, theres not much market out there to so you only have a few brands you could chose from, think about warranty on product offered too.

 

Turbos are much easy to spec to your needs, customize, rebuilt and are readily available.

Then you have to think about the engines ability, you can make a 16v head flow well and rev to 8000rpm with few valvetrain components ie springs/retainers. If you have good flow you have quick spoolup and can make very good power. Engine will also rev easier on those high revs as you wont have a charger strapped to it.

 

In terms of having a hot turbo near the firewall thats not an issue really, you can use things like heatwrap tape to protect all your wiring back there, turbo bag to cover the turbo hotside, ceramic coatings on the turbo hotside, firewall aluminium barrier, exhaust wrap on the manifold and downpipe, if your downpipe is too close to engine mount then just make a shield for it. All these products are not that expensive either. I like to raise the back of the bonnet with a few washers, this acts as a huge vent.

 

There is no reason engine mounts will suffer from a turbo, if you are making good power you will most likley change your mounts to stronger ones regardless of how you boost your engine. Mounts can be damaged more by improper launch of car or clutch release/driving style than by turbo spool up. If you need additional engine stability an engine damper can also help.

 

I think some of these issues have made most VR6 owners switch from supercharged to turbo, or maybe they are just power hungry :lol: .

[CTWG60 0]

 

Can you tell us all a bit more about the downsides of a turbo in a corrado engine bay? I'm not anti turbo I too think a 16v turbo VW is a good idea but some people would prefer to do something different or less common purely because they enjoy the challenge or the engineering or the unknown/uncertainty or the end result.

 

I'd be really interested to hear what the difficulties are in running a turbo at the back of an engine where there is not much air movement and lots of things to get hot like the steering U-J boot the wiring loom running over the back of the bulkhead, the windscreen washer jet pipes, etc. What about the engine mounts required to hold on to an engine producing over 300lb/ft in an sudden rush over say 500-1000 rpm, do they cause excessive noise and vibration or other problems.

 

These are things that rarely get discussed.

 

I dont really see a downside to putting a turbo at the back of your engine, if you are prepared to invest the money in good quality parts and enjoy the extra power there is no issues.

 

Im all in for new things and trying different stuff, you could get a 16v run nicely on a lysholm but not on the small version that BBM offer. You have to then think about the extra noise ect and the ability to to change settings ie vary boost ect. You must mount the lysholm properly otherwise they can seize.

The other issue is that chargers are not as easy to get hold of and you cant really spec them out more custom to you particular needs, theres not much market out there to so you only have a few brands you could chose from, think about warranty on product offered too.

 

Turbos are much easy to spec to your needs, customize, rebuilt and are readily available.

Then you have to think about the engines ability, you can make a 16v flow well and rev to 8000rpm with few valvetrain components ie springs/retainers. If you have good flow you have quick spoolup and can make very good power. Engine will also rev easier on those high revs as you wont have a charger strapped to it.

 

In terms of having a hot turbo near the firewall thats not an issue really, you can use things like heatwrap tape to protect all your wiring back there, turbo bag to cover the turbo hotside, ceramic coatings on the turbo hotside, firewall aluminium barrier, exhaust wrap on the manifold and downpipe, if your downpipe is too close to engine mount then just make a shield for it. All these products are not that expensive either. I like to raise the back of the bonnet with a few washers, this acts as a huge vent.

 

There is no reason engine mounts will suffer from a turbo, if you are making good power you will most likley change your mounts to stronger ones regardless of how you boost your engine. Mounts can be damaged more by improper launch of car or clutch release/driving style than by turbo spool up. If you need additional engine stability an engine damper can also help.

 

I think some of these issues have made most VR6 owners switch from supercharged to turbo, or maybe they are just power hungry :lol: .

 

Thanks for the detailed response, I've often thought about turbo applications to different engines and cars but I've always been put off by the heat issue as the turbo always ends up at the back of the engine. Always thinking/dreaming of the next project you see.

 

Off Topic:

 

Current favorite would be a Golf mk3 VR6 syncro. :grin: It's all there just need to apply the FI. :ignore:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I do remember you posting on here somewhere your interest in a carbon fibre bonnet with vents in it to get rid of some of the turbo heat as stuff was melting. :scratch:

 

Nope, nothing is melting. The only thing that's happened is the glue has dried up under the sound deadening sheet under the wipers. Obviously a CF bonnet is resin based and I didn't want it catching fire.

[vwdeviant 0]

I leave this thread for a bit and the handbags are out in the Turbo vs Charger world! :lol:

 

Miguel, as I've moved down to London I think I need to come have a chat at some point! :notworthy:

[CTWG60 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I do remember you posting on here somewhere your interest in a carbon fibre bonnet with vents in it to get rid of some of the turbo heat as stuff was melting. :scratch:

 

Nope, nothing is melting. The only thing that's happened is the glue has dried up under the sound deadening sheet under the wipers. Obviously a CF bonnet is resin based and I didn't want it catching fire.

 

SO you wanted the vents to stop the bonnet getting too hot and not anything else! Did you have to remove the standard bonnet sound insulation then when you fitted the turbo as I imagine that doesn't take to kindly to getting a little warm.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

The bonnet vents were an early precautionary idea, but I later discovered you don't actually need them as it doens't get much hotter than a stock engine under there. Obviously the better you lag things and use a turbo jacket, you reduce the risk still further.

 

On the move, there's more than enough air flow under the car to suck the hot air away, which is when turbos are at their hottest.

 

I've got Dynamat hoodliner on my bonnet, which is just foil lined foam and that's been on there 3 years and still fine!

[CTWG60 0]

The bonnet vents were an early precautionary idea, but I later discovered you don't actually need them as it doens't get much hotter than a stock engine under there. Obviously the better you lag things and use a turbo jacket, you reduce the risk still further.

 

On the move, there's more than enough air flow under the car to suck the hot air away, which is when turbos are at their hottest.

 

I've got Dynamat hoodliner on my bonnet, which is just foil lined foam and that's been on there 3 years and still fine!

 

OK so what your saying is yes turbo's do produce a large amount of heat at the back of the engine bay which is not ideal but the point your making is that you need to be aware of this fact and ensure that this heat is kept in the turbo it's manifold and the exhaust gasses.

 

It's a big point for me that a lot of people may not be aware of and believe me an engine bay fire is no fun at all and the rate at which the cabin fills with smoke is alarming, believe me I know!

[junkie 0]

Thanks for the detailed response, I've often thought about turbo applications to different engines and cars but I've always been put off by the heat issue as the turbo always ends up at the back of the engine. Always thinking/dreaming of the next project you see.

 

Off Topic:

 

Current favorite would be a Golf mk3 VR6 syncro. :grin: It's all there just need to apply the FI. :ignore:

 

What you need is to drop in a Vauxhall 2l turbo then as the turbo is mounted at the front of the engine, or better still a Cosworth lump as the engine is longitudally mounted so the turbo is on the side.

 

My engine sound proofing has held up for 3 years pretty damn good, as LowG has said change the engine mounts anyway to promote better handling and my steering boot has melted but due to not having any form of protection originally but its only a small hole so im not too concerned now its protected. I even have the standard plastic fuel rail pretty much above the turbo as you can imagine that i was always worried about but now i have my head off it looks like new still as far as i can see and nothing on the turbo or exhaust is wrapped or ceramic coated so on mine heat is currently not an issue. Cant say for sure for other engines though.

[CTWG60 0]

What you need is to drop in a Vauxhall 2l turbo then as the turbo is mounted at the front of the engine, or better still a Cosworth lump as the engine is longitudally mounted so the turbo is on the side.

 

I've been throwing a few ideas around in my head, I think my next car to play with will be an Audi of some sort Probably Audi 90 quattro as the handling is rather good. I have a FWD 2.3 10v as a run around at the moment. Can't decide on the engine but as they are longitudinal I'll be FI'ing with a turbo :ignore: I don't doubt.

 

My engine sound proofing has held up for 3 years pretty damn good, as LowG has said change the engine mounts anyway to promote better handling and my steering boot has melted but due to not having any form of protection originally but its only a small hole so im not too concerned now its protected. I even have the standard plastic fuel rail pretty much above the turbo as you can imagine that i was always worried about but now i have my head off it looks like new still as far as i can see and nothing on the turbo or exhaust is wrapped or ceramic coated so on mine heat is currently not an issue. Cant say for sure for other engines though.

 

Thanks for sharing, :thumb right: This is the sort of stuff we need to know. If the grease in that steering boot had reached flash temperature though you would of known about it very quickly. :wink: The insulation on the bonnet I have seen on some cars get very oil soaked and could potentially be a problem with a turbo mounted higher in the engine bay.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

OK so what your saying is yes turbo's do produce a large amount of heat at the back of the engine bay which is not ideal but the point your making is that you need to be aware of this fact and ensure that this heat is kept in the turbo it's manifold and the exhaust gasses.

 

Only under boost. When you're cruising along, they don't really add any extra heat at all to be honest. Corrados have good heat insulation on the firewall as standard with those moulded ally plates, but it doesn't hurt to lag plastics and hoses in the vicinity of the turbo. At the end of the day, if you build the car to potentially do 1000s of miles, then you'll be taking care of all that as second nature :wink:

 

It's a big point for me that a lot of people may not be aware of and believe me an engine bay fire is no fun at all and the rate at which the cabin fills with smoke is alarming, believe me I know!

 

I have experience of that - 3 times. All my fault. First time was in an old MK1 Jetta, I didn't put a grommet on the amp cable. Whole car went up. Lesson learned!

2nd and 3rd times were again down to a lack of care and attention on my part by feeding the turbo oil line over the hotside, rather than the cold side. The turbo melted the PTFE inner liner and it sprayed oil onto the turbo jacket, which caught fire.

 

So your point about the standard hood lining catching fire is a good one. Most heat management products for engine bays tend to be flame retardant these days though.

 

Stop fretting and get your cheque book out :D