Horrible rattling, any clues? VR6, PROBLEM FOUND, NOT

[Lippy 0]

fingers crossed for you mate

[mr_fusion 0]

cheers dude, all will become clear on saturday!!

[alex303 0]

any news Ben, hope its nothing too serious!

[mr_fusion 0]

Ok, i have found the problem!

 

I pulled the oil pump off and the shaft that drives it fell out.

 

One end has sheared off! (see pics)

 

I can't find the other end of the shaft. so either it fell out as well, or its is still up in the top of the engine.

 

If you look at the attached ETKA diagram, part 11 (shaft with gear) may also be damaged / siezed and is causing the noise. In fact it may have broken teeth on the gear.

 

I tried to get the cover off but it seems seized on, bolts came out ok but the cover itself seems jammed on. I will try again shortly!

 

The cover sits right under the exhaust manifold and is a bitch to get at though.

 

Anyone else had problem with this type of thing?

[mr_fusion 0]

Ok I got the cover of the geared shaft that connects to the intermediate shaft.

 

I was expecting to see chewed up gears, but everything seems fine inside.

 

I couldn't pull the gear out all the way as the exhaust manifold is in the way which is a pain.

 

Here are some pic of the old oil pump. Internally it seems fine, very very simple mechanically so not much to go wrong here.

 

Externally is a different story as you can see how the pickup is damaged (and this is after some straightening from last weekend).

 

Just need to track down a replacement shaft then. Must be a dealer only item (021 115 279). Anyone got a spare one???

[mr_fusion 0]

Got the new driveshaft for the oil pump.

 

So will be fitting tonight all being well.

 

Could do with finding the end of the shaft that has broken off too!

 

Old / New comparison below...

[Kevin Bacon 5]

If you take the int' shaft cover off on the block, you might find the snapped off bit inside there!

 

Otherwise, any fine metallic particles in the sump / oil filter? :lol:

 

Good skills chap, hope it works out!

[Toad 0]

With everything off, have you tried rocking the crankshaft back and forth to see if you can hear where the broken bit is/make it fall out? Maybe it would be worth reccomending other vr owners to change this part in future?

[mr_fusion 0]

I am thinking at may have pushed right up into the shaft that holds it above (with the cog on it that is driven off the internediate shaft) and is just stuck in there as it is hollow all the way to the top.

 

I will try putting a piece of stiff wire in from above and see if it falls out into the sump before I fit the new pump.

 

I think its unlikely that it has been ground down to metal dust, but I could be wrong.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

The shaft slots inside the pump drive gear, so you may need to remove the gear in order to dig the remains out, but try the usual tricks first.....magnets, sticks, glue, shouting etc etc....

[coolrado 0]

this happened to a friend of mines charged VR, apparently it was caused by a really thin strip of the plastic from the tensioner getting sucked up and caught in the oil pump gears which jammed them solid and snapped the shaft.

[mr_fusion 0]

I'm thinking thats what has happened in this case.

 

Some foreign object has ended up in the oil pump and jammed the gears and hey presto, all that torque on the shaft has snapped it.

 

Bearing in mind I have a lot of major head work done recently, this is entirely plausible / probable.

[Lippy 0]

cool - no long term damage then?\

[mr_fusion 0]

right.... plan B then :-(

 

Quite possibly a bad decision to try and fit the oil pump in the dark in the freezing cold with only a torch for light.... that was a right pain in the arse with some pretty colourful language thrown in.

 

I turned the crank over with a socket to get the oil pump primed and also turned the engine over with the main HT lead disconnected but sadly their is still a noise even after letting the car idle for 30 secs.

 

It now sounds like two gears not meshing correctly or something similar and I am beginning to think it is the gear on the intermediate shaft that drives the oil pump driveshaft.

 

Kev, when you said about removing the cover, did you mean the cover with two 8mm bolts (M10 heads) that sits at the top of the shaft, or are you referring to another cover.

 

It looks like I will have to unbolt the exhaust manifold to gain any better access to this area as it is in the way and I can't see the other gear that drives the oil pump shaft. Any tips on gaining acess to this area?

 

Oil pressure was also reading less than 20psi, but seemed more stable this time.

 

 

ARGHHH!!!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I know the feeling, I was under the car replacing the sump the other night and it's bloomin freezing!

 

Yeah that's the cover. In there is access to the gear and intermediate shaft bearing (white metal type). I'm wondering if your int' shaft bearing is completely knackered, causing the grinding noise and maybe it's friction from that causing the shaft to eventually snap? Not sure, just guessing.....

 

20psi cold idle pressure? Oh dear....that's 40psi short of what it needs to be :-(

 

That indicates either the pump isn't spinning fast enough, or it's knackered.

 

Going by the noise your engine is making, it's got to be the former and I reckon your answer lies under that cover mate....... yeah you might need to remove the front pipe and / or maniold. Both easy to remove tbh. I got my front pipe and manifold off in 20 minutes with the car on axle stands.

 

It's best to get as much access to the rear of the block as you can.

[mr_fusion 0]

I will find out if they took the manifold off when the head was done recently, as this should mean it will come off easily and not shear any of the studs/bolts in that area.

 

I will probably soak em in wd40 tonight so they are ready to come off on saturday.

 

I have taken that cover off a couple of times now, but can't get much more access or even see properly unless I can get that manifold out of the way.

 

I am guessing that taking the entire intermediate shaft out (if it is the bearings or related to this) would be a ball ache of a job? Bit scared of touching anything related to the timing chains / cams etc!! but really want to sort this out DIY-style

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Use 'Plus Gas' if you can find any as it's a lot better than WD40. Yeah if the manifold has been off recently, it will come off in a breeze.

 

When the cover plate is off, you should be able to just lift the gear out. You won't disturb the timing, don't worry about that. Not sure if you can replace the bearing in situ though, I'd check with Vince....

 

I wonder if the socket inside the gear has rounded out and not spinning the shaft properly? If so, be prepared for yet another new shaft :-(

[mr_fusion 0]

I think that you may be right and the hex shaped hole (that the shaft I just fitted slots into) has been rounded out inside and is slipping every revolution...

 

Bad news is that part (021 115 116 A) is £94.20+vat and is on 2 week back order according to the dealer... bum

[mr_fusion 0]

right. word on the street is that the exhaust manifold was removed recently

 

sooo.... i might have a go at taking that off tonight to get a better assessment of the problem.

 

Will I need to disconnect the downpipe from the manifold as well, or is it flexible enough to just push out of the way?

[Toad 0]

hmmmm. I don't suppose the low oil pressure you are seeing now is due to damage that has been caused by running at low oil pressure recently?

 

That would be a right sh!tter if it was...

 

I wouldn't expect the hole to have been rounded out, especially if it snapped the pump drive shaft... Maybe the noise is the reminants of the shaft bouncing around?

 

Either way, good luck, and I hope things work out... would be an incredible shame fi you had to do even more unplanned work on the old girl, after the work you put in.

[mr_fusion 0]

I don't have an oil pressure reference before this happened, but there will inevitably be bottom end wear due to the age of the motor, so i'm hoping this has made it worse!

 

At least the noise is very specifically coming from that area now and if I can take that out of the equation I can then think about any side effects of the damage.

 

Car was running very well before this happened, so will have to see what kind of oil pressure I have after this is sorted (if its sorted that is!).

 

There is an OBD1 Golf VR6 engine on ebay at the moment for £99 with no bids, so I may consider getting this and stripping it for parts if necessary. Only down side is it has 118k on the clock, but this is 20k less than mine.

[Toad 0]

You might just want new big end bearings and the crank regrinding if you're lucky.

 

How many of the 2.8 bits are transferrable? is it just the bore and pistons that are different?

 

It never hurts to have something like that knocking about, £100 odd wouldn't be a bad investment. you could always sell it agian in a few years...

[mr_fusion 0]

I think most of the ancillary parts are identical, and just the pistons and bore are smaller.

 

Bits like cooling parts, alternator, starter etc are going to be the same and pretty handy to have as spares.

[mr_fusion 0]

Just checked on http://www.vagcat.com and the golf / corrado vr6 part numbers are the same for all these bits.. so it should be worth a go.

 

Only downside is that I would have to keep the engine at my parents in shropshire and go up there and strip the bits I need and bring them back to london in a box as I live in a flat on the 2nd floor with NOWHERE to keep an engine.

[Toad 0]

Yeah, just right for a saturday evening when the alternator goes and you've a couple of hundred miles to do on the sunday...

 

I've got a complete H reg 16v in the shed for such emergencies.