Brake Upgrade 4 pots recommendations

[strimmer 0]

I have decided to upgrade my 1.8 16V brakes to 4 pot calipers fitting under 15" wheels, I looked the forum thru and found lots of info on brake upgrades, not so much on 4 pots though. Looking for a bit of feebdack and advice.

 

1. Brembo, AP out of my budget. Tarox are reputable, I know the name, a little more than Hi Spec. Hi Spec good value, I found bad info on there service and quality but this info is from 2003/4 to be fair. Has anybody got any views on their brake sets.

 

2. Any other trackday/race spec brakes recommended, along the lines of the brakes used by one make series racing cars, I can't find any good sites for this.

 

I will not skimp on brakes, they have so much influence on the track and as I trackday the car I want to know that they work, reliably and solid all day everyday.

[G60SC_Stoney 0]

wilwood do some skinny calipers, which means you can fit some bigger disks behind 15" wheels. im sure they are called superlites or something like that. I lot of Ford boys use them.

[junkie 0]

Good idea to do the brakes but a bit of a contradiction in ur comment.

 

I cant afford certain brakes but i wont skimp on the brakes.

[strimmer 0]

Sorry didn't make myself clear, a cheaper system isn't always bad but I do value quality very highly and wouldn't skimp a hundred pounds or so if the more expensive items are really that good.

 

Willwood, great, will check them out.

[junkie 0]

prob no good due to size but worth a look

 

http://www.the-corrado.net/.archive/forum/viewto ... 13&t=59479

[_leon_ 0]

those have already sold i think.

 

ap are likely to be the best (with a relatively sensible price). next best - probably pick between a bunch of them - you've listed the main contenders. seat brembo's are the usual choice due to availability and cost.

[corrado9a 0]

the set up i had in my 16v was perfect for the car, or for me on that car. :?

 

I sourced some brembo 4 pot calipers from a porsche 944. milled down G60 discs to 270mm and space the caliper about 4mm to center on the disc.

Brakes awsome, no fade even when heating the discs som much they warped and great feel. besides very light calipers and light discs which all fit under 15 inch wheels (with spacers).I spent less than 500 auros total incluiding pads discs and steel lines

 

 

more info here

http://clubcorrado.com/foro/viewtopic.php?t=4733

[steve_16v 0]

Buy the best ones you can afford, but personally I'd be avoiding Brembo 4-pots, they're notorious for warping discs.

[Blue_Joe 0]

Buy the best ones you can afford, but personally I'd be avoiding Brembo 4-pots, they're notorious for warping discs.

 

I had Brembo Seat Ibiza Cupra R 305mm 4 pots on my G60 and I had a heavy foot! Never had an issue with warped discs

[_leon_ 0]

corozin on here tracks his corrado and uses the brembo setup - I recall him saying he's never had problems with warped discs. I'm sure its possible to exchange the discs for better ones from other manufacteurs anyway

[steve_16v 0]

II'm sure there are plenty of people out there who haven't had any problems with the brembo 4-pots, it's a good kit but is well known for warping discs. Take a look here if you don't believe me http://www.drivertuition.com/LeonCupraBrakes.htm, it's also the same caliper that's used on the fiat coupe, take a look at what the buyers guide says about the brakes http://www.coupeweb.net/4882.html.

[_leon_ 0]

II'm sure there are plenty of people out there who haven't had any problems with the brembo 4-pots, it's a good kit but is well known for warping discs. Take a look here if you don't believe me http://www.drivertuition.com/LeonCupraBrakes.htm, it's also the same caliper that's used on the fiat coupe, take a look at what the buyers guide says about the brakes http://www.coupeweb.net/4882.html.

 

I cant get to the drivertuition page - is that the correct url?

 

but is the warping caused by heat build up within the one piece caliper, crap pads and/or crap discs? I honestly think if the pads and discs were changed, the warping wouldn't be a problem. thoughts?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

The Brembo 305mm kit fits behind 15" compomotive MOs just fine, and looks superb too.

 

That's what I'd do personally, rather than fudging around trying to get something to fit the OE wheels. It's more money but the MOs are track proven to be bomb proof and you can get those 4 pot brems and reasonably large discs behind them and with Toyo R888s or Yoko A048s, it'll be a brilliant setup for the track.

 

As for discs warping with Brembos, too many things cause that. Cheap, one piece discs, user abuse etc etc....

The Brem calipers themselves are a proven design and work well.

[_leon_ 0]

The Brembo 305mm kit fits behind 15" compomotive MOs just fine, and looks superb too.

 

That's what I'd do personally, rather than fudging around trying to get something to fit the OE wheels. It's more money but the MOs are track proven to be bomb proof and you can get those 4 pot brems and reasonably large discs behind them and with Toyo R888s or Yoko A048s, it'll be a brilliant setup for the track.

 

As for discs warping with Brembos, too many things cause that. Cheap, one piece discs, user abuse etc etc....

The Brem calipers themselves are a proven design and work well.

 

 

good chat here. i believe 15" mo's with ET20 will cover the brembos?

 

do you know of any other discs that would work? ap's, wilwood etc? pad choice would help surely?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah ET20, or 25, around that. Jon at Stealth has them on his Green Rado! An ET that far out increases wheel weight though!

 

I'd be looking for a disc + alloy bell combo personally which don't generally warp because the iron disc is isolated from the hub, so can expand and contract at it's own natural pace.

 

AP discs are very good, but you'd be looking at around £200 a peice just for the rotors in 304mm, or £1300ish for the whole 4 stud disc/bell/caliper kit.

 

Pads, yep they make a big difference. Something with a friction coeffecient exceeding 0.5 would be good. The Pagid RS15 is very evil at 0.6. DS3000 is strong too, at 0.55ish.

 

Neither are good for wheel finishes though, but I use the RS15 on the road and works great as a daily pad too.

[_leon_ 0]

A guy on here was selling mo's with ET20 and mentioned brembos will fit fine. i chose not to change to 5 stud though so didn't take them in the end.

 

The discs for the brembos are pretty heavy too - once they warp i'll look at changing... any idea how good the wear rate is in the ap kit? i wanted the whole kit but it was just too much money on top of other things i wanted done.

 

Pads - I was going to go for the DS2500's as they are little more friendly and won't damage wheels like the DS3000s will (so I've read, not experienced first hand). Pagid must have a similar pad.

 

All interesting stuff. Will take it out of track and form some of my own decisions - the track is an excellent test bed ;)

 

EDIT: Kev I asked on a thread about Jon Maliks car - I wanted to know more about it. Interested to know what spring rates etc he's using and what gearbox setup he has. Do you have any idea - I know you're chums with the Stealth guys!

[steve_16v 0]

II'm sure there are plenty of people out there who haven't had any problems with the brembo 4-pots, it's a good kit but is well known for warping discs. Take a look here if you don't believe me http://www.drivertuition.com/LeonCupraBrakes.htm, it's also the same caliper that's used on the fiat coupe, take a look at what the buyers guide says about the brakes http://www.coupeweb.net/4882.html.

 

I cant get to the drivertuition page - is that the correct url?

 

but is the warping caused by heat build up within the one piece caliper, crap pads and/or crap discs? I honestly think if the pads and discs were changed, the warping wouldn't be a problem. thoughts?[/quote:88312]

 

I think the drivertuition site may be down at the moment, you can find it in google cache though. As for why they warp discs, they are a 20 odd year old design race bred caliper that whilst extremely effective, aren't ideally suited for road use, swapping discs after every use is fine for a racing team but not for normal drivers. It doesn't help that some people and manufacturers use cheap discs with them instead of proper Brembos as they're just not upto the job. They also have very big pistons that seem to be either 'on' or 'off', so you don't get the same feel as you get from more modern calipers.

 

Using good quality discs and pads will certainly help improve matters, and if you look after them well you probably won't have any issues with them, but replacement discs for those brakes are expensive so what might appear as a good cheap upgrade could cost a lot of money in the long run. Personally, I'd get a more modern kit.

[_leon_ 0]

I think the drivertuition site may be down at the moment, you can find it in google cache though. As for why they warp discs, they are a 20 odd year old design race bred caliper that whilst extremely effective, aren't ideally suited for road use, swapping discs after every use is fine for a racing team but not for normal drivers. It doesn't help that some people and manufacturers use cheap discs with them instead of proper Brembos as they're just not upto the job. They also have very big pistons that seem to be either 'on' or 'off', so you don't get the same feel as you get from more modern calipers.

 

Using good quality discs and pads will certainly help improve matters, and if you look after them well you probably won't have any issues with them, but replacement discs for those brakes are expensive so what might appear as a good cheap upgrade could cost a lot of money in the long run. Personally, I'd get a more modern kit.

 

What can be had for less than the AP kit? and work as well?

[steve_16v 0]

What can be had for less than the AP kit? and work as well?

 

I doubt you'll find anything that is as good as the AP racing kit for less money, they're as expensive as they are because it's a top of the line kit that's amongst the best you can get, anything with similar performace will cost similar money.

[_leon_ 0]

What can be had for less than the AP kit? and work as well?

 

I doubt you'll find anything that is as good as the AP racing kit for less money, they're as expensive as they are because it's a top of the line kit that's amongst the best you can get, anything with similar performace will cost similar money.

 

For us mere mortals - we'll stick with the 'lesser' brembo kits then ;)

[corrado9a 0]

from my experience the problem i had with warping was due two reasons and none of them were the calipers itself.

 

One was when milling down the discs i think they were not properly cooled during the milling and the other is quality itself from the manufacturer. They look good but not perform as good. As i learned later they are used by body filler tuners.

 

The brakes are so awsome that even when i abused them to the max (heat produced rubbing due to very tight clearences, my fault) they continued braking hard. (good fluid)

 

do not go cheap on brakes but is not necessary to spend a ton to get quality for the fast road user.

[_leon_ 0]

keen to find alternative 305mm disc options. as these seem to be the weak link. anyone whos got any ideas, share em...

[Kevin Bacon 5]

The discs for the brembos are pretty heavy too - once they warp i'll look at changing... any idea how good the wear rate is in the ap kit? i wanted the whole kit but it was just too much money on top of other things i wanted done.

 

Alloy bells shave a bit of weight off aswell as preventing warp.

They look smart too :lol:

I haven't had the APs long enough to determine wear rate. I stamp on them pretty hard and they seem to be holding up well. The trouble is you can't judge the wear rate by the usual "lip" you get on OE brakes because the pads go right to the edges of the disc.

 

Pads - I was going to go for the DS2500's as they are little more friendly and won't damage wheels like the DS3000s will (so I've read, not experienced first hand). Pagid must have a similar pad.

 

Yep I have some of those. Nice and consistent 0.5 friction regardless of temperature *. A great daily pad with the odd track session here and there. I perfer pads that increase in bite with pressure AND temperature, which the 2500 doesn't do. The Pagid RS15 is beautifully balanced imo, very, very feelsome with enough bite and modulation at low speeds and temps, but when you use them in anger, my god do they bite hard. All perfectly fed up to your foot with oodles of feedback. You can almost visualise the tread blocks buckling under the strain they are that chatty and you can certainly feel the grooves in the disc slicing a layer off them, cause they're soft little beggers 8) .

The DS3000s contain a lot of iron, which at 600 deg C is going to eat through your wheel laquer. They're not great for road use, being very noisy aswell and if you get the car wet and not use it for a while, the pads stick to the discs.

The RS15 hasn't got iron dust problems, but it's compound is just a little 'sticky' and will need a quick scrub with a plastic brush to remove, otherwise they're OK.

A milder Pagid pad would be the Pagid blue or black. The RS15s are also known as the Pagid Grey and are the stickiest they do.

 

EDIT: Kev I asked on a thread about Jon Maliks car - I wanted to know more about it. Interested to know what spring rates etc he's using and what gearbox setup he has. Do you have any idea - I know you're chums with the Stealth guys!

 

He's using regular H&R coilovers, G60 spec I think, so spring rates around 350lb front and 275lb rear. Gearbox is a VR6 one I believe.

 

They also have very big pistons that seem to be either 'on' or 'off', so you don't get the same feel as you get from more modern calipers.

 

Yep. To get a more balanced and easier to modulate caliper, the leading and trailing pistons should be different sizes. 4 pots the same size will give a fairly on/off feel as you say....

 

* - Coefficient of friction. it's important to get right. It's on a scale of 0 to 1. 0 being like ice on ice and 1 being like someone shoving a bar through your bike spokes :-) OE pads are usually around 0.3. A good track/road pad will be 0.45-0.5. Pads start getting crazy strong from 0.6 to 0.7. I'm not aware of any pads higher than 0.7 personally.....but they'd make you sick i reckon!

[strimmer 0]

Running 15" BBS RZ wheels ET30(?) looking at 280/285mm discs, could I stretch the disc size a little larger though.

 

Great thread guys, anybody with the same wheels running big brake set ups?

 

Wilwood do a Superlite caliper for a 298.5mm disc but no info on clearances required on their website. Could these work, maybe try phoning round but who is best to speak to for Wilwood products?

[strimmer 0]

Is the 298.5mm disc the VR disc size? Which will fit in behind 15's ?