Rear Beam Refurb, what bushes?

[VRTrickster 0]

Im going to be carrying out a total rebuild on my rear beam as soon as it gets a tad warmer. Im collecting up the bits at the mo, Im also uprating the rear brakes with Mk4 rear calipers, braided hoses, and EBC Ultimax grooved discs with green stuff pads.

I have used the search but Im still unsure of what rear axle bushes to fit. Ive read you can possibly use r32 or TT rear bushes, is this correct? Are they both the same? Ive got some cheapo Febis at home, but Ill rather fit the best, but within reasonable price etc. The other option are of course poly, and o.e. Ive heard a few pros and cons of the polys, I just need a little help as this is one job that I only want to be doing once! :)

[KipVR 1]

Lots of people recommend using the original Corrado bushes to retain the qualities of the moving rear axle, I had poly's in mine for the past few years, all it's done is make the back a bit more nerveous/twitchy so I personally wouldn't reccomend them. I'm changing them this month.....

[Goldie 2]

Im going to be doing this to mine in the new year and think ill be staying with OE parts, interested to hear about R32/TT alternatives..

[Toad 0]

R32 has rear wishbones I believe so doesn't have this type of bush. I think the R32/TT bushes are for the front wishbones only.

[Goldie 2]

R32 has rear wishbones I believe so doesn't have this type of bush. I think the R32/TT bushes are for the front wishbones only.

 

Sounds likely Tom..

[VRTrickster 0]

R32 has rear wishbones I believe so doesn't have this type of bush. I think the R32/TT bushes are for the front wishbones only.

 

Thanks guys, yeah I was sure the R32 was 4WD. Can you replace the whole wishbones, or do you have to press the R32/TT ones into the rado ones?

 

So the only option is the o.e for the rear then, or do vibratechnics do a uprated version? Im gonna have a look now.

[VRTrickster 0]

Yes there is rear bushes available for the MK2 and MK3, and Im assuming that the rado has MK3 ones?

 

They have a fairly hefty price tag though, and I cant seem to find a pic yet.

 

http://www.stealthracing.co.uk/show.php?mid=45

[pete_griff 0]

i've just put poly's in my rear beam, so as soon as i can drive the car anywhere i'll let you know how good they are - on first impressions they don't make the ride much more noticably fidgity when you are riding in the front.

 

as for making the car more twitchy at the rear, if you've got good tyres then this shouldn't be too horrific and as the vr6 is a naturally understeery car anyway, i like the idea of having a more lively back end - makes the drive so much more involving (IMO anyway)...

 

i'll get back to you as soon as i've done some proper miles though

[Goldie 2]

Please do, look forward to hearing the verdict..

[VRTrickster 0]

R32 has rear wishbones I believe so doesn't have this type of bush. I think the R32/TT bushes are for the front wishbones only.

 

Thanks guys, yeah I was sure the R32 was 4WD. Can you replace the whole wishbones, or do you have to press the R32/TT ones into the rado ones?

 

So the only option is the o.e for the rear then, or do vibratechnics do a uprated version? Im gonna have a look now.

 

Anymore info on the front wishbone bush alternative, whole wishbone or seperate bushes?

[Toad 0]

I think that the larger of the bushes is replaceable with the R32 item, it's the one the bolt goes through vertically.

[pete_griff 0]

that sounds right to me - it's also interchangeable with the TT bushes that Vince from Stealth recommended to me...

[Goldie 2]

Standard rear bushes from VW are 70 quid..

 

So what can we use from a TT??

[davidwort 0]

this bit? (no.3) -Audi TT wishbone diagram BTW

[VRTrickster 0]

Cheers davidwort, I think Ill replace these when I refurb my subframe. Are these the same as the R32 ones? Is there much difference in the two?

 

I should be able to get some sort of discount on the OE bushes, but their alot more expensive the Febi, why is that, better quality rubber :?

[KipVR 1]

i've just put poly's in my rear beam, so as soon as i can drive the car anywhere i'll let you know how good they are - on first impressions they don't make the ride much more noticably fidgity when you are riding in the front.

 

as for making the car more twitchy at the rear, if you've got good tyres then this shouldn't be too horrific and as the vr6 is a naturally understeery car anyway, i like the idea of having a more lively back end - makes the drive so much more involving (IMO anyway)...

 

i'll get back to you as soon as i've done some proper miles though

 

The Corrado has passive rear steering, achieved via allowing lateral movement in the rear beam. This is done by allowing the rear rubber bushes to stretch laterally (sideways across the car), as well as torsionally (to allow suspension movement). The problem with the powerflex rear bushes is that they actually allow the rear beam to slide on them, so basically they are like a slide fitting bush.

 

The result is a more accurate pivoting action due to the harder compound, and as they are only a pivot, they don't really contrubute to noise and vibration travel. Basically they reduce eccentric axial movement in the rear bushes.

 

The BIG downside is that the rear beam can now slide freely sideways with no resistance, and you lose the self centring of the rubber stretching back to a central position in line with the fronts wheels, so you can find that the rear wheels are offset to the fronts!!!

 

Allowing such free movement of the rear beam also results in a back end that snatches out of line. The standard bushes give a resistance allowing for a more progressive and slower weight shift. In all there is very little benefit to be gained from the harder bushes, but a lot of downside.....

 

This should be taken into consideration when looking at your rear suspension struts too- where they bolt to the rear beam. The original legs have rubber bushes there to to allow for the lateral movement. A lot of suspension kits dont allow for the sideways movement by having solid bushes where you mount the legs.

 

I installed the poly bushes a while ago, just because the old ones were shot. What I have ended up doing is packing either side of the bush to stop the lateral movement altogether (and therefore passive rear steering) until i put new originals back on...... As you can predict the back end does not come round as before and I have more understeer :( , but with the poly bushes on and no packing it made the rear end far less progressive and more on/off!!! Not good. You wont really notice it unless you are really pushing the car round corners though, but at that point watch out :?

[Mystic Rado 0]

i've just put poly's in my rear beam, so as soon as i can drive the car anywhere i'll let you know how good they are - on first impressions they don't make the ride much more noticably fidgity when you are riding in the front.

 

as for making the car more twitchy at the rear, if you've got good tyres then this shouldn't be too horrific and as the vr6 is a naturally understeery car anyway, i like the idea of having a more lively back end - makes the drive so much more involving (IMO anyway)...

 

i'll get back to you as soon as i've done some proper miles though

 

The Corrado has passive rear steering, achieved via allowing lateral movement in the rear beam. This is done by allowing the rear rubber bushes to stretch laterally (sideways across the car), as well as torsionally (to allow suspension movement). The problem with the powerflex rear bushes is that they actually allow the rear beam to slide on them, so basically they are like a slide fitting bush.

 

The result is a more accurate pivoting action due to the harder compound, and as they are only a pivot, they don't really contrubute to noise and vibration travel. Basically they reduce eccentric axial movement in the rear bushes.

 

The BIG downside is that the rear beam can now slide freely sideways with no resistance, and you lose the self centring of the rubber stretching back to a central position in line with the fronts wheels, so you can find that the rear wheels are offset to the fronts!!!

 

Allowing such free movement of the rear beam also results in a back end that snatches out of line. The standard bushes give a resistance allowing for a more progressive and slower weight shift. In all there is very little benefit to be gained from the harder bushes, but a lot of downside.....

 

This should be taken into consideration when looking at your rear suspension struts too- where they bolt to the rear beam. The original legs have rubber bushes there to to allow for the lateral movement. A lot of suspension kits dont allow for the sideways movement by having solid bushes where you mount the legs.

 

I installed the poly bushes a while ago, just because the old ones were shot. What I have ended up doing is packing either side of the bush to stop the lateral movement altogether (and therefore passive rear steering) until i put new originals back on...... As you can predict the back end does not come round as before and I have more understeer :( , but with the poly bushes on and no packing it made the rear end far less progressive and more on/off!!! Not good. You wont really notice it unless you are really pushing the car round corners though, but at that point watch out :?

 

So in essence you're saying stick with VAG OE bushes or end up with a less predictable back end? I polybushed my Mk 2 GiT, did the front end first then changed the rears a few thousand miles later and it definitely got much twitchier after I did the rears to the point where I regretted it. Seems to have improved with several years of wear, but it's one of the main reasons I'm going to use OE bushes rather than polyurethane on the 'rado. Interesting.

[pete_griff 0]

unsure if you were looking at a 4-stud set up or something kip - but after installing my poly bushes on the rear, i can definitely say that the beam won't slide from side to side - the bushes simply won't allow it - they have a big lump on the one side of them that replaces the metal sleeve bit of the originals, and this prevents the axle from moving from side to side at all - it's physically impossible (they will be a bit more squishy than the original metal sleeves, but there really is going to be little/no movement laterally...

 

i totally agree about making the back more twitchy though - although i've yet to see how this manifests itself in the rado, as i havent driven it properly yet...

[KipVR 1]

They must have changed them then pete (I put mine on a long time ago!) mine allowed movement too easily and i had to pack them. But either way only the originals have got the correct properties to allow the beam to move sideways the right amount and return to centre. Many people (esp track cars etc) prefer a locked rear beam though because it is more consistent, passive rear steering qualities change with weights and speeds which why VW dropped it I think........but I personally and many others like it for its ability to swing the rear round gently 8) .....

[pete_griff 0]

but I personally and many others like it for its ability to swing the rear round gently 8) .....

 

yeah - i know where you're coming from - i had a 306 s16 and they have very good passive rear wheel steering - it feels funny to have the backside helping you around the bends! i have to say though that after having my 205 gti and falling in love with the lift-off oversteer (which the 306 did very well too in all credit) and the fact that the vr6 especially is a natural understeerer, i like i slightly more lively backside - like you say - very much personal preference.

 

for the record my poly bushes are in the mountings very tightly as i had to beat the end of the beam with a hammer just to get the bolt holes to line up - they won't let it slide very much at all - though the "packing" bits are made from poly and not metal like the sleeves on the original bushes, so i'm sure they will allow a certain amount of passive steering.

 

by the way i finally got my car back on the road again today, but i don't think the geometry place i took it to have tightened up the camber bolts enough, despite the fact i copper-greased them. the bolts are as old as the car, so i'm going to get hold of some new bolts and go back again next weekend and get them to sort it properly. as it stands though the rear feels good (in my opinion)...

[VRTrickster 0]

Well thanks guys for helping me make a decision. Im going to play it safe and fit oem, as we all know that it handles well with them, and they last long enough before you'll have to replace them again.

 

The only thing is the pressing in! Ive been told that the polys are a doddle to fit compared to oe type?

 

I may have to try and borrow a 3111 tool off someone.

[KipVR 1]

I don't have one, could you not get something that will do it from Halfords? Some of the stores have quite a few tools nowadays, ok maybe not the best quality..., perhaps something to pull it through from the other side or get a long bolt, a nut and some big washers :lol:

[pete_griff 0]

what kip says is all well and good - and right, but if you can get hold of the right tool, then definitely do that - you risk stressing the bush when you put it in if you don't use the proper kit as it could put undue strain on the rubber etc and shorten the life of the bushes - it's normally pretty obvious if you are doing/going to do something that will bugger it up, but if you can use the proper kit, it will not only be easier to do, but you can be sure of doing a proper job...

[VRTrickster 0]

yeah, I think Im going to try and borrow the tool. My Dad works for Audi and probably knows a friend who works for VW he can ask, I hope!

 

Ive just made a mistake and brought some 4 motion rear calipers of a guy on the VR6OC, which are meatier and probably for vented discs :(

 

Im not giving up though! Im going to see if theres anyway of getting them to fit before I sell them on. Ill let you know how I get on.