For those with hot start problems - lil update

[waynos 0]

When i first got my car i could start the car and drive for hours on end however, if i turned the car off e.g. to fill up with petrol the minute i tried to start it i wouldnt get anything, not a click ,not an attempt to crank. Now ive been doing some research and it appears a lot of vws used to do this, especially those with bosch starter motors. They suffer from a heat soak(from high under bonnet temperatures) where the voltage to the starter solenoid terminal drops below ten volts or even more. This seems to make even more sense in my case as i swapped the starter and battery from my 16v and still had the same problem. My g60 gets way hotter than my 16v ever did.

 

the solutuion..

 

A starter relay. Bosch did do a kit called the wr 1 which came with wiring etc and i think vw even did a relay for this too.

 

it is wired so that the original starter wire trips the relay. The relay is positioned next to the battery so that you can have a nice short direct feed from the battery positive to the relay then from the relay to the starter solenoid. Earth can be taken from the gearbox earth. In effect this should also lengthen the life of your igntion switch as the load will be placed on the relay and not the switch. Your starter solenoid will now always get battery voltage nothing less.

 

heres a pic i found showing the wiring of the bosch starter kit.

 

 

 

They use a fuse so that in the event your starter is faulty it will blow this rather than fry the relay. I cant find the bosch kit for sale anywhere but im sure all the bits needed could be bought from somewhere like halfords for under 15 quid.

 

Hope this helps anyone whos had the problems ive had, Now i still need to sort my other running problem lol

[davidwort 0]

yeah, I've seen a similar diagram on Vortex before, but I thought the starting problem was just due to a weak ageing solenoid which gets even weaker once hot, when I swapped to a newer solenoid the problem went away, but providing a better feed to the solenoid would obviously help an old one kick out when hot.

[waynos 0]

i would have put it down to my starter solonoid getting weak also but the one i swapped it for was only a couple months old which had me stumped! i may aswell give it a go as ive got nothing to lose lol. Im sure the mk5 golf uses this as well? i could be wrong though.

[davidwort 0]

ageing wiring and switchgear certainly causes problems on old VW's, check the voltage at the lights on the average (un-relayed up) Corrado and you'll be lucky to see 11.5 volts!

[waynos 0]

amen to that! the amount of wires ive seen snap in my hands due to so much exposure to heat is insane.

[waynos 0]

right i got busy making my own. Used a 40 amp relay which i got off ebay, some old amp cable i had and some male and female spade connectors. All connections were soldered ( i dont trust crimping them!)

 

 

 

hopefully i can get it on the car this weekend and also sort out my other problem

[mattkh 0]

All connections were soldered ( i dont trust crimping them!)

Hi

But then you have to worry about a dry solder join.

[waynos 0]

i have never had a dry joint before (touch wood)in a way ive kind of combined the two. Pushed about 7mm of wire trough the terminal and crimped that then the bit of wire left protruding ive soldered so it should be ok

[KIPVW 0]

Jude here...

What about hot start problems when the engine turns and turns but wont fire up?

Kips 8v has had a few more instances of refusing to start. I thought I had cracked it thinking it was an immobiliser thing as when it wouldn't fire up, on arming and un-arming it would then fire up first time.

 

However, on a trip back from Bristol when I had borrowed the silver one (mine was bent) I stopped 1 mile from home to get milk after a 200 mile journey and the thing wouldn't fire up. Locked it and un-locked it a few times to no avail. I left it where it was, got a lift home (luckily a neighbour had just pulled up for petrol) and told Kip I had abandoned his car. Had tea and an hour later it fired up first time.

What's all that about then???

[Fulltimejunglist 0]

did you remove any other relays from your car?

[waynos 0]

i didnt remove any relays mate, still running the same setup now

[fla 9]

Waynos? where exactly do you connect the cable to the 'starter ignition wire'?

[buttles 0]

fla, I cut the wire about 3 inches from the plug on the starter motor. You then attach the load wire from the relay to the plug. The loose end (from the ignition switch) then attaches to the trigger terminal on the relay. Quite the most simple and best mod I've done to the car. Neil

[fla 9]

ok thanks for that. You dont have any pics of your install do you?

[buttles 0]

Not really practical as wires all over the place. I put the relay in a strong plastic bag behind the battery and ran the wires down to the starter motor. Make sure you have a good join to the starter motor plug. I soldered, crimped and heat shrunk mine. Been good for six yrs now. This thread should be called 'Click no more'! Also, not had to change an Ignition switch since.

[dr_mat 0]

Is 40A enough? I'd heard a VR6 pulls in the region of 120 amps during a cold start..! (The battery should be able to deliver in the region of 600 amps - see the CCA figure for yours.) Look at the current strap on the starter - you need serious chunks of copper to get the thing to start.

 

---------- Post added at 4:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 4:51 PM ----------

 

Or am I confusing the solenoid with the starter itself .. :)

[fla 9]

yes this is just for the solenoid. Strange thing today - battery was drained slightly as the car has been standing since last weekend, but still there was no delay in the starter engaging and it fired up after about 3 turns. Is it possible that it is due more to the installation of the starter (and hence alignment) than anything else? I dodnt need to support the engine when i took the old starter out, and the new one just bolted straight back even though it was done a few days later. Used the same bush for the pinion in the gearbox though. Could that be causing the issue?

[buttles 0]

Hasan, what are your starting symptoms? This thread is just about getting the dreaded click when starting a hot engine, normally on a hot day.

[fla 9]

mine is very similar - when turning the ignition, there will usually be a slight pause for a fraction of a second before the engine cranks over. Often, irrespective of the engine being cold or warm, when you turn the key there is a slight click from the engine bay (which i presume is the solenoid), but the engine does not crank over. Almost as if the immobiliser has cut in, although with that there is absolutely no sound.

I have changed the starter for a new one (twice in fact!) and replaced the ignition switch with a new VW one but still get these symptoms. There is not much of a pattern to it, for example even when the battery was obviously drained (yesterday) there was no pause in turning, just the turning speed was slower, but it fired up. I'm not convinced that the relay will solve the issue, but its just one thing to rule out.

What do you think Neil?

[buttles 0]

Hmmm....mine never failed to turm when cold. And never had a 'delay' when turning the key. That I would have put down to ignition switch but you have changed that. Recently? Earths would be my next look? The relay is easy to do and avoids hot start problems in the future. Back to bed after a very wet, cold Knebworth!

[fla 9]

Thanks. Yes changed about 1 month back plus the starter. I've repaired the starter exciter wire so will see if that affects it at all. Bonnet earth and starter connections seem to be fine.

[fla 9]

well since repairing the broken connector in teh exciter wire, it all seems to be ok now...famous last words!

Perhaps there is some link that if the alternator is not charging the battery the current through the solenoid is insufficient?? I dont know, but there is obviosuly a requirement for the two to be working together effeciently. Anyway, new starter and ignition switch means one less weak link in the chain.

[buttles 0]

Glad it's fixed. As far as I know it's a direct link from the Ignition switch to the solenoid. No other logic. I will smile if you repost in the hot weather that it just clicks!! Neil

[poll250 0]

Picked up one of these kits the other week from Volksgoods.

 

Am I right to assume the positive fee can just be taken from Terminal 30 on the starter motor, as that gets a direct feed from the battery in any case.

 

Which is the gearbox earth on the starter motor? The instructions I've got suggest removing one of the long 13mm bolts that go to through the gearbox, but there's a lot of stuff in the way (ie the cable holder mounted on the starter)- Any easier to get to earths down there?

[borarob 0]

back from the dead...

 

is this the right relay for making one of these? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161028211754?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649