Scriked Vr not runing right

[corrado9a 0]

Hi all once more

 

It seems like i mostly post my problems instead of nicer things but my car is driving me crazy. This has been going on for ages and i don´t know why. and now i could confirm that is not only my gut feeling.

 

The problem is that the car dies at 4000 rpms like every schricked V but it never recovers back. At first it looked pretty clear that it was a problem with the intake, I checked the operation of the flap and it does switch to open at 4000 rpm and visually stays there, opened until reved down again. i scan the car (vagcom) and there is no codes, the car otherwise runs fine and smooth.

 

mods on the car are the usual 268º and intake from Schrik, mk4 HG, 2.5 inch straight through exhaust and a chip burned by stealth for these mods. (the car was not rolling roaded to make the chip).

 

I am runing out of ideas and since so many of you have similar mods, you have tons of more experience than me or anyone here in Spain.

 

Best regards from Madrid

Julio

[corrado9a 0]

really no one have had a similar problem with their intake? I just know two cars with the VGI (mine included) and both have similar problems (the other guy got tired of it and sold it) and i dont give up

[dukest 0]

cant think of anything obvious if the flap is working. was it working previously but then it stopped?

 

you say the chip came from stealth, have you called Vince to see if he has any ideas? I'm sure he'd be happy to talk it through with you.

[pete_griff 0]

are you CERTAIN the schrick isworking properly (i.e have you had it apart to check).

 

also, (bear with me here as i'm not THAT familiar with the schrick,but....) could it be that it is opening fine when the car is stationary, but not opening properly when it's being driven out on the road under load? :shrug:

 

if the flap appears to be physically working alright, could it be the electronics and or vacuum that control it not doing their job properly...

 

the only thing i can think of that would lead to a dyno plot like that, is that the flap is not doing it's job...

[dr_mat 0]

I've heard that the cam sensor being faulty can cause a serious drop in performance above ~4k rpm.. (The engine stops doing sequential injection and retards the ignition a lot, too.)

 

Otherwise it would seem that the Schrick's valve flap is not connected to the vacuum actuator, as hinted at above.

[corrado9a 0]

first thanks alot for the the replies.

 

I have tried to contact vince by mail with the plot attached but i have no reply. i guess that short of harrasing him over the phone, which i dont know if he likes or not, i dont know what else to do. i guess that if anyone is friends with him could give me a hand.

 

Regarding cam pos sensor. I had the code in the past and i replaced the sensor, cleaned the wire harness and the code never showed up again. In the past i trhought that was the culprit.

But when i saw the graph it was cristal clear to me that it was the vgi, although i am not sure anymore. Then i thought that maybe with the hood down the underside was pressing on the vaccum line and maybe piching it because i could always see it moving. i replaced the all the vaccuum lines under the hood for new ones and the one going to the actuator for a smaller and tighter line. when the car was rolling roaded it had the hood up and the schrick moved;

The only thing that is left to do is to take it appart and see if it does the full movement, because the flap is like a throtthle butterfly and maybe if it does not fully swing it does not work propperly?

 

Thanks a lot once more for the help and excuse me if there is any mistake with my english.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I have tried to contact vince by mail with the plot attached but i have no reply. i guess that short of harrasing him over the phone, which i dont know if he likes or not, i dont know what else to do. i guess that if anyone is friends with him could give me a hand.

 

I would ring him. He's not at his desk very much but does answer the phone :D

 

But when i saw the graph it was cristal clear to me that it was the vgi, although i am not sure anymore. Then i thought that maybe with the hood down the underside was pressing on the vaccum line and maybe piching it because i could always see it moving. i replaced the all the vaccuum lines under the hood for new ones and the one going to the actuator for a smaller and tighter line. when the car was rolling roaded it had the hood up and the schrick moved;

The only thing that is left to do is to take it appart and see if it does the full movement, because the flap is like a throtthle butterfly and maybe if it does not fully swing it does not work propperly?

 

I used to have the Schrick, 268 cams and Big bore throttle on mine. How old is your VGI? A few years ago we had a bad batch of Schricks. 3 or 4 in 10 had binding issues with the flap and actuator mechanism, causing it to stick closed, giving you no pull past 4000rpm. Vince knows all about that as he had the job of fixing them!

 

Thanks a lot once more for the help and excuse me if there is any mistake with my english.

 

Your English is VERY good :salute:

[corrado9a 0]

I bought mine from someone in this forum which probably got it through a group buy. I think it worked ok on his car, but i know that this does not mean a thing now. i could happen now and not then.

 

I will call Vince this same afternoon.

 

Thanks for the help, it is great to ask here as you guys are far more advance into upgrading cars (corrados specially) than us in Spain.

 

Thanks also for the english compliment :)

[corrado9a 0]

I talked to Vince last friday. he really is a usefull guy and realy realy helpful.

 

following his advice, i did some tests; i routed the vacuum lines directly from the servo to the actuator. the flap then opened at idle and stayed open with the hood up while reving. then i took the car for a spin and it did ripped to the redline. it was starting to wake up at about 3500 rpms and it was a little soft in the upper midrange from 4000 until 5500 where i could feel it giving last effort to the limiter with renewd strength

Then i re worked all the vacumm lines, i had no vaccum tank, so i added a small tank from a mk2 car with a one way valve in line and checked again. Actuator closed until 4000 and then opened again as it should and pulled more cleanly to the redline than it did lets say last week.

 

What i need to do now is to take it to the rolling road and check perfomance again objectively, not against my spine. I will post results and lessons learned in case someone experience same problem.

 

Thanks a lot to everyone that helped me.

 

BR

[corrado9a 0]

a little update on what has happened.

I added a vaccum tank as i had none and it could be the culprit of my problems. I went to the RR and dynoed the car. I got the exact same result. I was pretty pissed at that moment.

Then i changed the vaccum lines on site and runned the schrick actuator directly from the brake booster (with the vacumm tank). This way the flapper is open all the time from idle to the end. We dynoed the car like this and once more we got the exact same result. Then i was not pissed, i was puzzled.

How could this be. i see the actuator moving and being opened all the time and still got the 3000rpm torque bulge.

 

I taked to Vince this saturday and after i check it the flap is moving all the way (which i will try to do today if is not too cold and late when i get home) i may need to send the whole intake to Stealth. :( i dont know at this point if I whish my flapper is not fully swinging (in which case i will need to ship it) or is working correctly (in which case i have no clue of what could be happening)

[Rustynuts 0]

Does the car drive better on the road? The reason I ask is that sometimes a rolling road cannot give a real road result. Are they running a good enough fan for example?

 

If it is your car I would move away from your assumed problem with the manifold. I would guess that you have a more basic problem that is not throwing up any fault codes. Is it as simple as your timing being slightly out?

[corrado9a 0]

That could be the case, is my last option to check because it requires the most work, but is a possibility. Nevertheless, the max torque is there where it should be with a value that seems right, 265NM which is 195 ftlbs.

I made a video of the actuator moving up and down just because given all the graphs are the same seems like it was not moving, but seems ok to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qkmcv1ShsU

 

i guess i have lots of work to do during these christmas hollidays.

[corrado9a 0]

sorry to bring this thread back from the dead, but this is driving me f*¨^## nuts.

 

I am runing out of ideas.

 

As a summary.

the actuator seems to be working fine, i can see it opening at 4000 rpms and it moves smoothly.

I replaced the magnet on the cam for the CPS as i found it to be broken.

The cam timing is spot on.

 

I have been to a RR testing after each change and still gives me the same exact curve. Just to put it into perspective i am seeing a flat torque curve of 160 ft lbs after the peak of 195.

the lambda is a little lean at 0.92 until 4500 rpms and 0.82 from there after.

 

Any more ideas???

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I'd say 0.82 lambda (12 AFR) is a little rich. That's the kind of fuel you'd normally give to a turbo engine :D

 

Maybe ask Vince to back it off a little in the map?

 

Do you have the standard cams and intake to hand, just to pop it back to standard and make sure the engine itself is OK?

[corrado9a 0]

i dont have the cams anymore, i just could get a hold of the intake for an AAA engine and i will put it on just to test soon. I am crossing my fingers as i have nothing left to try, but i dont hold any hopes high as bypassing the actuator in the manifold and operate it on open all the time did not make any difference either.

 

Now that i remember i even replaced the TPS because someone told me that it could be faulty and not throw a vag-com code.

 

I sent a mail to Vince at the same time i wrote this post, lets see what is left to do, i have even thought about driving up there to UK to have him fixed it once for all but once i run the costs, i gave up, it would be cheaper to set it on fire.

 

kev, thanks a lot for the help.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

That might be the only option, a live rolling road remap :(

 

Is there no one in Spain with good VR6 mapping skills?

 

Good luck with it though. Don't set fire to it!!

[corrado9a 0]

can anyone post a graph a car with similar modifications to mine. I googled a lot but find none or low value.

268 +VGI + almost whatever except FI

[dukest 0]

hi there, my car has schrick + 268s + BMC + standard exhaust.

 

these are the best run it ever did standard (a bit unusual) vs the best run its done since the mods:

 

power

2.8l 24v Climatronic system.pdfDSC02905.JPG[/attachment:309wlit4]

 

torque

DSC02906.JPG[/attachment:309wlit4]

 

hope they're useful..

[corrado9a 0]

yes it does help a lot. You have a sustained torque of about 190-195 lbsft where i can only sustain about 160. this confirms me that i have something wrong

 

this same afternoon i will open the flap in the VGI with direct vacumm once more to check that it works and doenst change a thing in the power delivery and then the weeken i will need to check the timing once more as Vince suggested but this time looking into the mid gear lignment. (i checked the with the cam alignment and TDC on cyl one while looking at the crank pulley mark) but that may not tell the whole story?

 

THANKS A LOT and i mean it, to all of you guys giving me a hand. i really do apprecite the help

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah Vince means check the intermediate shaft pulley.

 

These pics might help... You can just about see the timing marks if you use a torch and small telescopic medical / dentist mirror and poke it down the gap!

 

The arrow should align with the notch as shown.

 

Also, did you conduct your flap tests hot and cold? Does a cold run on the dyno produce the same results? We've seen flaps that bind when the intake is hot, but sounds like you have exhaustively tested it.

[corrado9a 0]

yes he was reffering exactly to this. great pics and very very very helpfull.

 

What i dont understand is: if the marks on the crank pulley and the slots for the cams are all in the right place, why does it matter the position for the intermediate pulley? i am asking because i am now going to take the car to a mechanic, (better skills than me) and he is going to ask me this exact question.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Because the intermediate sprocket turns the cams (and the oil pump) and if the intermediate shaft position is wrong, the cam position will be wrong :wink: Not by a huge amount, the engine will still run, which is why many people don't notice it.

 

The problem is the cam sensor. To get the correct injector timing, the cams must be in the right position because the magnetic trigger is attached to the rear cam, and if it's out of alignment, the sequential timing will be wrong.

 

If you had a standalone ECU, you could adjust the cam position and injection angle in the software to suit, but the Factory ECU must have the right alignment or it won't work.

 

Many of the cars Vince has seen which are down on power for no apparent reason have been caused by misalignment of the intermediate sprocket! VW put the timing marks there for a reason :wink:

[corrado9a 0]

then, can it be possible that the cam locking tool fits into place and the intermidiate shaft is out of position?

I am going to check no matter what, but i want to understand how an itermediate sproket which is just transferring movement between the top and bottom sprockets, with no gearing addition/reduction, can have this timing effect if cam locking tool slits into place and the marks on the crank pulley seems to align.

 

I looked for and read an engine manual last night and it all adds up, when i read it i see how is done, but i dont see how moving this mid-gear if top and bottom are correct, can have an effect. No doubt that it does and therefore the marks and the directions in the manual... but why.

 

I owe you a beer or two, next time in the 25th anniversary meeting, or in Spain if you come by, i will make sure i can get you a couple of drinks on me.

 

BR

[corrado9a 0]

and now one more piece of meat in the pot.

 

lets say that the itermediate shaft is off, therefore misalingning the CPS trigguer magnet and my ECU is not reading codes correctly, which is all very possible, and thats why i am loosing my estimate of 30hp after 4000 rpms etc... all making sense.

 

But then if the inyection when continuous or bank injection, it should be pig rich right after 4000 rpms till the limiter, but the wide band in the rolling road read 0.92 until 5500 and 0.82 from there on. does that make sense?