KR not starting since new head fitted

[Yash 0]

I am need of some help.....again.

 

I managed to source a reconditioned head so two weeks ago I started the task of replacing my old head which was leaking oil through the valve guides and seals.

 

After having a nightmare removing the exhaust manifold I managed to get the old head off. Putting everything back together again was relatively easy, however now it won’t start.

 

I turned the engine over by hand before trying to start it and it turned over without and resistance. It also turns over fine on the starter motor so I am confident that it is timed up correctly. I have a spark from the distributor. The fuel pump primes, I have disconnected the fuel lines to the regulator and I have fuel, I have disconnected the fuel line to the 5th injector and I have fuel. I have pulled the injectors out and I have fuel (although not as much as I was expecting although the car ran fine before pulling the head so I don’t see why the injectors would have suddenly blocked up). I have checked, double checked and triple checked all the air pipes and electrical connections, they are all connected. The ISV buzzes when the ignition is on.

 

Have I missed something? After doing all the work myself I am very reluctant to get a mobile mechanic out to have a look at it.

[Toad 0]

Are the leads on the right way round? The distributor is timed up alright? Might be worth getting a timing lamp to check.

[raddo_tom 0]

I had this problem on a 8v. Try jump starting it (with a tow) If you get a huuuuuge bang then the timing will be out 180 degrees.

[Yash 0]

Thanks for the quick response, leads are on correctly as I took the dizzy cap off complete with the leads in their little cable tidy thing. If the distributor is timed incorrectly wouldn’t the car run still but not optimally?

[Yash 0]

I had this problem on a 8v. Try jump starting it (with a tow) If you get a huuuuuge bang then the timing will be out 180 degrees.

 

Can you get the timing out by 180 degrees? The distributors go in one way only don't they?

[Skimask 0]

You said you turned the engine over by hand and there was no resistance. There should have been as the pistons are compressing air.

Maybe you should check the engine timing marks all line up.

[Yash 0]

I just checked the timing marks and the mark on the top of the cam sprocket lines up with the groove in the rocker cover. I also checked when I was fitting the cam belt that that line on the back of the cam sprocket lined up with the side of the head and the two marks on the cams were at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock.

 

Pic of when i was fitting the head

 

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There is resistance but not anymore then I was expecting. Turning it by hand now feels the same as before I removed the old head.

 

The rotor arm is pointing to the ht lead that fires cylinder one when the engine is at TDC.

 

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I have added a link to a video of me trying to start the car earlier. To me it sounds like its lacking fuel. What do you guys think?

 

View My Video

[Wullie 1]

Try taking out the plugs and dropping a splash of petrol into each cylinder, then replace the plugs and see what happens. If it's sparking OK it should fire and run for a few seconds. If you're really lucky it might just give it the incentive to keep running.

[dirtytorque 0]

i would really check the ignition timing with an timing light as already suggested if the static timing is ok and you have compression and spark..If it is out enough the car will not start.

Can you smell fuel?

Are the spark plugs wet?

You can hear the fuel pump prime etc ?

[aide 0]

i've had this problem with my old valvers more times than i can remember, particularly when they weren't started for a few days/ weeks :?

 

most times just cranking cranking cranking and a squirt of 'easy start' got them going, and they fine afterwards, other times it was fuel pressure related, for instance if the fuel accumulator membrane is ruptured the system looses pressure and the pump struggles to deliver the injector supply volume (pressure) from the cranking battery supply alone, you'll get a petrolly smell from the 5th injector alone which is retriggered with every starting attempt, another time it was a faulty warm up regulator that was over regulating the supply

 

the timing sounds fine, but cant load that vid for some reason, i'd agree trying a dash of petrol if you dont have any easy start to hand

 

the joys of mechanical injection eh :D i kinda like it, but you need to get yourself a fuel pressure guage so you can test it, and a book called 'how to tune and modify bosch fuel injection systems' or similar title :salute:

[casual 0]

if your positive timings ok. then go back to basics, if you can do a compression test do that.

as stated before check the fuel pressure, but if you have fuel there it should at least idle. after you have turned it over / tried part throttle? are the pistons wet after?

[Yash 0]

Just been out to the garage to give it another try.

 

I sprayed easy start into each spark plug hole, replaced the plugs and tried turning the engine over but it would not fire. I am slowly losing the will to live with it. the engine doesn't even sound like its about to start.

 

I dont have the equipment to carry out a compression test or fuel pressure test. I may try dropping a small amount of fuel into each cylinder tomorrow however i dont think that will start it seeing as easy start did'nt do the trick.

 

There is a garage at the bottom of my road so i will speak to them on Monday, maybe i can get a mechanic to come up to my place with a timing strobe and get his opinion.

[aide 0]

you spray easy start around the airbox/ front offside headlight not into the chambers direct - you need the easy start (fuel) to be suspended as a spray!!

 

have you actually checked for spark at the plugs?

[davidwort 0]

I've had a K-jet metering head stick when it's been dry for a while, did you actually lift the metering head flap when testing the fuel delivery to the injectors? should spray a lot of fuel, like nearly a litre a minute (all 4 added together) with the flap at full lift.

does the plunger on the metering head move smoothly and with slight resistance when lifting the metering air flap by hand?

[Yash 0]

you spray easy start around the airbox/ front offside headlight not into the chambers direct - you need the easy start (fuel) to be suspended as a spray!!

 

have you actually checked for spark at the plugs?

 

argh, ok I will give it another try. Shall I try spraying the easy start while someone is cranking the engine?

 

Yes, I have checked for a spark. There is a spark from both coil and distributor.

 

 

I've had a K-jet metering head stick when it's been dry for a while, did you actually lift the metering head flap when testing the fuel delivery to the injectors? should spray a lot of fuel, like nearly a litre a minute (all 4 added together) with the flap at full lift.

does the plunger on the metering head move smoothly and with slight resistance when lifting the metering air flap by hand?

 

I haven’t tried lifting the flat while spraying the injectors into a bottle. However I did clean the metering head and yes the flap moved smoothly and with a bit of resistance.

 

Do I need to crank the engine to get the injectors to spray with the flap opened or will they spray with the ignition on? Last time I tested them I was cranking the engine. The battery has been in and out of the car so many times the past couple of weeks, don’t think it's too good for the starter either.

[Yash 0]

ok, I have just tested the injectors and they fine, i lifted the flap switched the ignition on and they sprayed loads of fuel. so i think i can rule out fuel starvation. i also tried advancing and retarding the dizzy housing, which made no difference.

 

The only thing I havent been able to test for is compression, hopefully I'll be able to get a mechanic to test it tomorrow.

 

It just seems strange that it doesnt ever sound like its about to fire......

[aide 0]

Are both your hall sender and earth straps connected too?

 

Yes, you need someone cranking when easy start is sprayed.

[Yash 0]

the only earth strap i disconnected when i removed the head was the one from the coil to the dizzy.....i reconnected that one. Hall sender is connected.

 

I tried spraying easy start while cranking, did not work :(

[Yash 0]

Right, the mechanic popped round this evening, he didn’t bring a compression tester with him however when I turned the engine over he said it sounds to him like there is no compression at all. He recommended whipping the cam/rocker cover off and checking all the timing marks because it could be out 180 degrees.

 

When I put it all together I checked and rechecked the timing due to fear of bending a valve(s) in my shiny new head. The only place where I think I could have made a mistake is when I swapped the cam shaft sprocket from my old head to the new head. Is it possible to put the camshaft sprocket on 180 degrees out? I thought it went on one way and one way only. If this was on incorrectly wouldn’t the valves hit the pistons? Everything else lined up, the o's on the cams were at 3 and 9 o'clock facing each other. The lobes for cylinder one on the two cams were pointing towards each other and upwards (as per pic on pg1).

 

What do you guys think? I may strip it and get him to take a look at it prior to refitting.

[aide 0]

yep the cam pulley can only go one way, there's a wedge/ groove on the cam and pulley; that said others on here have seen the wedge thing shear off which could place the timing out.

 

am sure you have done already, pulley has two marks, one 'cam side' which has ' - ' which line level with head, another inlet on the other side ' | ' which lines vertically with the triangle on the cam cover, check they're both in line when cylinder 1 when at TDC tested through the spark plug hole.

[Yash 0]

Took the rocker cover off this morning and checked all the timing marks, everything is lined up perfectly, I even stuck the oil dipstick down the spark plug hole of cylinder one to ensure that the piston was at tdc.

 

I spoke to the mechanic again and he said the only other thing that he can think of is that the hydraulic tappets haven’t filled up with oil yet and therefore the valves are sticking open/closed and therefore there is no compression.

 

He suggested taking the spark plugs out (so the engine turns over easier), taking the fuse for the fuel pump out (so the pistons don’t get soaked in fuel) and cranking the engine on the starter for ages. Then put it all back together and trying again

 

The head had been sat in my garage from September to December before I fitted it. I also don't know how long it has been sat around for before it was sent to me.

 

What do you guys think? I am willing to try anything at the moment but I also don’t want to burn out the starter. Have any of you heard of this problem with the tappets?

[davidwort 0]

If you turn a healthy 16v engine over by hand (socket on the crank pulley bolt) you should clearly feel and hear the compression from each cylinder as you turn the engine round.

I presume you're getting plenty of fuel (smell) in the engine then from what you've said, so the only other possibliity is the ignition side.

Even if you had no compression on one or more cylinders you should still get it to fire up.

I've had tappets out a fair few times and although they can take a while to fully pump up I've never heard of them all failing in one go and preventing an engine firing at all :scratch:

[davidwort 0]

just been chatting to my dad about your car,

few other things to think of,

 

ignition side, it is possible to have a spark at the plugs but under compression in the engine the spark isn't strong enough, hall sender and wiring to/inside dizzy can be a problem (insulation breaking down), coils occasionally fail

 

engine timing,

are you totally sure you haven't got the inlet cam a tooth or two out from the exhaust cam, whip the cam cover off and you should easily see if any inlet valves are partially open at the wrong time just from the position of the cam lobes, engine should spin way too fast on the starter and turn more easily by hand if inlet timing/cam timing is wrong, it may not be enough out for the valves to touch the piston tops when you checked the engine over.

 

also if you have spun the engine over a lot, especially in this cold weather (fuel atomisation poor) you could have washed the bores clean of oil and have no/low compression from no sealing on the rings

 

HTH

[Yash 0]

I checked the engine timing and everything lines up perfectly. The head came with cams fitted so I think they are lined up perfectly, they look it.

 

The dizzy is about two years old and the spark is strong when grounded against the head. Is there anyway to check the condition of the hall sender? I am guessing that the coil is fine as there is a spark from the dizzy.

 

When the mechanic listened to the engine he thought it sounded like it was turning slowly on the starter (battery fully charged) which led him to believe there is a compression issue.

 

When I took the plugs out they smelt of fuel, so fuel is definitely getting through. I am going to try and get a compression tester tomorrow and test the compression at each cylinder.

 

 

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I tried to take a pic of the timing mark flywheel but it didn't come out, the mark is too small.

[davidwort 0]

looks like your engine timing is Ok then,

to test hall sender, remove connector from TCI unit (under scuttle panel)

connect diode test lamp (not bulb as current will be too high for the electronics on the car) across pins 2 and 6 on the connector plug

operate starter, diode test lamp should flicker, if not you need to replace hall sender

 

if you want to check the coil, TCI unit etc, I can let you have the full test procedure details

 

but it's looking more like a compression issue?