Valver tuning and cooling questions

[Abdul 0]

Hi guys, ive posted up a few questions about engine conversions etc in the past and well tbh i havent done anything just yet and well the story goes like this...

 

I originally wanted a VR but couldn't insure it (was 19 at the time), bought my valver, love it but its a bit sluggish... so then i wanted a VR/20v T in the rado, decided against the 20v engine due to cost and the fact that ive never liked the way they drive, I settle back into the valver for a while and then Tedmans 24V VR goes up for sale, i go crazy, have a couple of people come view the valver, neither took the car so without the sale of my car i can no longer buy Terrys 24v lol. Now im thinking ok lets VR my rado which was a good plan untill i met up with a friend a couple of days ago whos got a vr and OH MY GOD the sumps hang low so no thanks.

 

I mean im constantly smacking my valvers sump especially on my way to work so the VR's out of the question there and yes i prefer my cars aesthetics to VR smoothness! Oh and tbh, ive gotten to like the valvers power delivery for some reason lol. Early torque delivery doesnt entertain me as much (mind u it is impressive when u get in a tdi/1.8t/24v).

 

So ive got a few simple questions and before anyone says search, yes i already have but tbh theres not much that answers my questions specifically.

 

So KR cams, great simple mod i understand, what kind of difference can i expect in the cars top end output? I hate that it refuses to do much more past 5.5kish rpm. What is it that gives the actual KR lumps there 7k rpm redline? I do like my valver to scream you see! What can i do to make the valver more rev happy?

 

How much can i expect to pay to have cams fitted? Ive been quoted around 200 quid for the swap and i wasnt sure if this is too much or not?

 

Do small bits like uprated spark plugs/air filters/ht leads etc make any difference?

 

After cams whats next? I want to get a 4 branch mani asap and a new decat exhaust system knocked up sometime soon after... that along with cams should see me approximately another 10% of power and torque over standard right? Im assuming headwork is next? What have people payed for this?

 

Im pretty sure ive read that the KR inlet mani restricts torque a bit so do u guys reckon the ABF one will offer any improvements? Or would it be worth while getting the stock 9a inlet ported? If so, can someone put me in touch with a reputable company to do the work that wont rape me sideways...

 

Thats enough about power, cooling next!

 

So, will a VR rad and fan fit? If they dont keep the valver cool in the summer i dont know what will... Im assuming a mocal oil cooler would help but how much can i expect to pay for one fitted?

 

Any other advice/opinions on the above would be hugely appreciated!

Sorry for the amount of questions,

 

Abdul

[mariojoshi 1]

VR lump with R32 oil pump and shallow sump?

Should be laughing then!

[eugopnosaj 0]

Bookmarked! The points you bring up are something that im interested in at the moment too, i cannot afford the outright costs of buying a VR at the moment (although i am saving to buy one at some point!) and i want to increase my current power output on my 2.0 valver. Im also tempted by turboing it which ive read is better through using a KR or ABF head. Obviously it'll take me a while to collect and assemble the appropriate parts but if i can get a decent increase before hand, by changing the head/cams etc then the turbo will be an extra addition.

[davidwort 0]

I'm not convinced you need to do much to the cooling on a valver unless it's going to be a track car.

I've run mine with the original VW radiator, a pattern cheapo GSF one and now a new VAG one and TBH they don't need any more.

My car is a 2L lump but with a P&P KR head and the original 1.8 KR injection, so it rev limits at 7,200 and with the flowed head pulls strongly to the red line, with something around 165-175bhp I've never had overheating issues, oil or water, no oil cooler on mine, just the original heat exchanger.

I've also got the original 42mm inlet manifold, also ported and polished and so is the original cast iron exhaust manifold, there's no restrcition on the inlet or exhaust side really and I'm loathed to try a 50mm inlet manifold or tubular manifold as I've currently got around 150lb/ft at 5,500 rpm and 130 over most of the rest of the rev range, last thing I want to do is drop the low end torque, especially when it revs so smoothly and strongly to the red line anyway. (just a panel K&N type filer BTW)

If you look at cars like GVK's old mk2 16v (club GTI) it's pretty clear that unless you have a very light car (stripped out mk2) then aiming to get a few more peak hp at the top end (wild cams etc) isn't going to make the car any quicker or more pleasant to drive.

If you're ever at any of the meets this year, inters etc. you're more than welcome to a ride in my motor, if you work the revs it's not far off the pace of a standard VR, I've had a few forum members follow me before that will back me up on that :)

[Swompy 0]

 

 

So KR cams, great simple mod i understand, what kind of difference can i expect in the cars top end output?

 

 

I've just had a KR inlet cam put in mine along with a few degrees of ignition timing and feuling adjustments and tbh it doesnt fill that different. But it does pull through the revs alot smoother and even more so at the top end. The only big thing I have noticed is it picks up alot quicker whilst in gear.

 

Price wise I paid £211 for the above plus new chains and fitting a new inlet manifold. (at DG Autotech)

 

 

And Dave Could I have a ride in your valver too please 8)

[eugopnosaj 0]

My car is a 2L lump but with a P&P KR head and the original 1.8 KR injection, so it rev limits at 7,200 and with the flowed head pulls strongly to the red line, with something around 165-175bhp I've never had overheating issues, oil or water, no oil cooler on mine, just the original heat exchanger.

I've also got the original 42mm inlet manifold, also ported and polished and so is the original cast iron exhaust manifold, there's no restrcition on the inlet or exhaust side really and I'm loathed to try a 50mm inlet manifold or tubular manifold as I've currently got around 150lb/ft at 5,500 rpm and 130 over most of the rest of the rev range, last thing I want to do is drop the low end torque, especially when it revs so smoothly and strongly to the red line anyway. (just a panel K&N type filer BTW)

 

Out of curiousity how much was the p&p for your manifolds? And what is the difference between 9a 2l injection and KR 1.8l injection? and in an honesty i still dont understand entirely the difference between the 9a and KR heads, only that the KR allows a higher rev limit :? sorry for being a bit thick! :(

[Abdul 0]

So would i be better off just sourcing a mint KR head then to get a better rev limit?

 

I think with regards to the cooling the problem i have is the amount of stop start traffic i sit in. The other day after sitting in 1 hours worth of traffic my oil temp was at 128 degrees but that was a one off (normally max is 122) and the coolant 110. Mind u, my coolant has always sat at 100 degrees during town driving for some reason!

 

Ok, so with regards to tuning...

 

A 9a/KR ported and polished head... Dave, who did this for you and could you give us some rough guidance in terms of how much we should be paying?

 

Ported and polised 42mm inlet mani...

 

Kr cams...

 

Panel filter and exhaust system...

 

anything else?

 

If after all these questions i go and drop a VR lump in its not my fault, it is jus a lazy assed way of gettin good power! Does anyone know how much more clearance the R32 sump gives?

[Kempy 0]

i've bought for my valver, a kr head and a 4 branch manifold. When its all fitted i'll let you know if its worth it. I hope so. Not worried about cooling tbh, its not really gonna be getting that hot. You could get everything ported/polished and a your head could be bored out. Look in the wiki 8)

[eugopnosaj 0]

So would i be better off just sourcing a mint KR head then to get a better rev limit?

 

Ok, so with regards to tuning...

 

A 9a/KR ported and polished head... Dave, who did this for you and could you give us some rough guidance in terms of how much we should be paying?

 

Ported and polised 42mm inlet mani...

 

Kr cams...

 

Panel filter and exhaust system...

 

anything else?

 

Im contemplating using an ABF head, [strike:2wx157tr]with either KR[/strike:2wx157tr] or ABF cams, only because i'm tempted to turbo it and the ABF is apparently the way to go. Also possibly a KR 50mm inlet, although as davidwort said you lose torque at the low range and as the turbo suits higher torque ranges i would probably also benefit from a decent low end torque before the turbo kicked in

 

But i too would be interested is this set up if i cannot get the ABF head im looking at

 

Ok so after some research using KR cams in the ABF head would be a downgrade in power, i currently have 2 9a blocks (early one was a HG failure, currently using a late one which has ABF exhaust apparently, see below) and if i run 2 9a exhaust cams (402" lift) should expect about 8hp increase for free! (stock 9a intake is only 354") 2 ABF (412" lift matched set) gets me around 12hp apparently but what increase is the KR cams?

 

Also if your car is a late 9a apparently you only need bother changing the inlet as the exhaust is the same as an ABF (or so ive read): http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=96345.0

 

'As for cams, the later ABF ones are arguably the best stock ones out there, there was a post on CGTI with all the cam specs of the different 16v motors. If you get a 9a head the only cam you need to swap is the inlet for an ABF, or both cams for a pair of ABF ones. The later post 94ish 9a has the same exhaust cam and head as the ABF, inlet still lame so just a ABF inlet cam for that one. Easy way to tell if its a late head or not, if it is held on with nuts rather than bolts its a late one.'

 

I know this has probably been talked about to death, and im sorry to kinda hijack your thread abdul but theres so much to trawl through that it gets confusing after a while!

[davidwort 0]

Out of curiousity how much was the p&p for your manifolds? And what is the difference between 9a 2l injection and KR 1.8l injection? and in an honesty i still dont understand entirely the difference between the 9a and KR heads, only that the KR allows a higher rev limit :? sorry for being a bit thick! :(

 

There's little difference between to KR and 9A heads, there's minor variations in castings over the years and 9A heads have extra water galleries that help keep heat from the inlet ports.

The KR inlet cam gives the KR engine the 'pull' over 4000 rpm and the peaky power band compard to the flat 9A. It's the ignition module on the KR that sets the rev limit to 7,200 rpm, and the fuel/ignition ECU on the 9A.

The injection system is purely mechanical on the KR, whereas the 9A has an electronic module to adjust the fuel control pressure and lambda feedback, all to help it meet emissions and to run with a catalyst, this tends to hold back the 9A as you can't set them up 'rich' to get that bit of extra power that you can for the plain K-Jet injection off the 1.8 KR.

 

My inlet manifold was done with the head, a long time back, but you should be able to get equivalent work done for around 500 quid.

Exhaust manifold was done by TSR for around 70 quid.

 

16v tuning certainly isn't cheap for the power you get back and a VR lump will get you more torque and instantly the same or more power than a tuned 16v, but then it makes for a totally different car and one that's heavier and with more of the weight further forward in the engine bay.

 

Swompy, you're more than welcome to have a drive :)

[Erny 0]

Listen to David, he has a very good engine set up, and has had for a long while now, and always gives good an accurate advice.

kr heads and inlet manifolds have bigger inlet ports (realy early kr heads barely need the inlet ports porting, but are becoming harder to source) when I fitted the 50mm inlet manifold and kr inlet cam I missed the low down torque the narrower 9a inlet n cam gave, all the kr stuff was fine on my lighter mk2 but pulling the corrado off the line wasn't the same. The top end difference was noticeable,

personally I would keep the 9a inlet manifold, and fit a kr inlet cam and a abf exaust cam, k&n filter and a fourbranch, and as much dizzy advance as your engine will let you, all this can be acceived for less than 200 if you keep ya eyes peeled for deals. Shaving weight off your car is free and helps. Smaller wheels give good acceleration

if you want to keep going source a kr head and post it to the man in the shed on clubgti for a port n polish new guides etc, costs around 300,

I've recently fitted a vr, it's a treat, but has a drinkin problem, and the extra weight up front is suprisingly noticeable,

I'm not 100% sure, but think abf heads and inlet manifolds are not a straight swap on kr and 9as

[davidwort 0]

what i would be interested to know is whether the ABF cams are any better in a KR/9A head with K-jet injection than the KR cams, or whether they need the ABF head and mk3 16v injection system to keep the torque curve up.

If I ever come across some cheap I might just try a set of ABF cams just to see.

ABF engines are certainly the peak of development of the 16v engine.

[eugopnosaj 0]

personally I would keep the 9a inlet manifold, and fit a kr inlet cam and a abf exaust cam, k&n filter and a fourbranch, and as much dizzy advance as your engine will let you, all this can be achieved for less than 200 if you keep ya eyes peeled for deals. Shaving weight off your car is free and helps. Smaller wheels give good acceleration

if you want to keep going source a kr head and post it to the man in the shed on clubgti for a port n polish new guides etc, costs around 300

I'm not 100% sure, but think abf heads and inlet manifolds are not a straight swap on kr and 9as

 

Well if the above is true (about later 9as using ABF heads and exhaust cams) then theoretically i only need to source the KR inlet cam, however for the time being im going to put a spare (early) 9a exhaust cam in. What do you mean by dizzy advance?

 

The ABF inlets aren't a straight swap no as they do not have the same fuel rail as the 9a/KR so a slightly different shape, but without physically having the ABF head i can't be certain about a direct swap but they do look identical but for ease and to quote the guy selling it 'It will also fit the 1.8 16V block, but the compression ratio is lower than with the KR/PL heads. Could be useful for forced induction', like you said its probably easier to find a KR head, that way i'll already have the cams etc however cash flow is an issue at the moment :(

 

what i would be interested to know is whether the ABF cams are any better in a KR/9A head with K-jet injection than the KR cams, or whether they need the ABF head and mk3 16v injection system to keep the torque curve up.

If I ever come across some cheap I might just try a set of ABF cams just to see.

ABF engines are certainly the peak of development of the 16v engine.

 

Dunno if these qualify for 'cheap' cams but they're ABF: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380216548709&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[davidwort 0]

... What do you mean by dizzy advance?

you can get away with a bit more base setting of ignition advance at idle by turning the distributor, as long as you use super unleaded fuel.

Mine is set at about 7.5-8 degrees whereas factory setting is 6.

 

I've not yet seen a 9A Corrado with an ABF type head from the factory, but engine number wise there are apparently some, they still have 9A cams in though as the Corrado never had anything but K-jet or KE-jet fuelling. All you will get though are the slightly revised valves and combustion chamber, I'd imagine it makes next to no difference on the KE-jet fuelling and ignition though. All 9A engines use the same part number as the KR for the exhaust cam.

[Abdul 0]

Wow some awesome info here guys... now i need to try and understand it all lol. How much do u chaps reckon a regular garage would charge to fit the cams? I couldnt do it myself for sh*t.

[skinnyman9000 0]

I too am very interested in the cooling options for valvers. I have a 1.8 kr lump, but last week I did a cross town jaunt in rush hour and I was seeing coolant at just below 110c and oil around 120-128, the last time it was that high it burst a coolant pipe, so i get very nervous, and it's only going to get worse in the summer.

 

I have a sneaky feeling the garage put poop oil in, as it gets hotter quicker, but even syntac will eventually reach the 120c mark. My radiator fan motor is about ready to die, so I wanna know if it's worth replacing the radiator for a VR one whilst I'm there

[davidwort 0]

seriously, just fix the standard 16v system, valvers weren't designed to run at 80 deg oil all the time so an air/oil cooler is just overkill for road cars.

Most 16v's have dodgy heater bypass valves, heat exchangers and old radiators, add to that dubious radiator temp switches an fans and often missing or broken underbonnet temp switches (front left of cam cover) it's not surprising they run hot in traffic.

 

I went from 1.8 to 2L and increased the timing advance, not to mention the headwork and it doesn't run any hotter than it did as a bog standard 1.8, that's a 10% capacity and 20% power increase.

 

I've got a IR point and shoot thermometer, very handy for checking temps around the engine bay, if the water coming out of the rad is cool enough when the fan runs when the car is idling then that's fine, I've not really found any particular oils to make any difference and very strong coolant additive can perhaps make a couple of degrees difference, but not much.

[Erny 0]

Vr radiator would be a pain to plumb in becasuse the inlet and outlet are on the nearside of the rad, standard rads have always been fine for me, but my freind had a slighty bigger deisel rad in his 9a mk2jetta that ran 165bhp

[skinnyman9000 0]

Well ive replaced my heater bypass valves and and the fan switch within the past few months, so i know they're fine.

 

Perhaps a new fan/motor and a closer look at the radiator would do the trick

[davidwort 0]

yeah, radiators can get partial blockages and yet appear to flow water through fine

and thermostats cause loads of problems, pattern parts are generally the worst, but even VAG ones can be temperamental, stick 3 or 4 in a pan of hot water and they'll all open and close at slightly different temps :lol: