Excessive Oil Useage + Major Engine Refurb Costs

[oneohtwo 8]

Hi guys, my VR has been having a naughty drink of the oil, and wondering if anyone has any ideas. Basically am getting through a lot of oil; over a ltr per 1000 miles, which is outside the slightly excessive sounding tolerance in the manual and from reading other people's usage on here quite a bit more than it should. If it carries on I might have to start callign it a Diesel! :lol: :|

 

Trouble is I can't quite figure out where it's going. I don't have any major leaks, there's never any drips or puddles underneath anywhere it's been parked. There is some weeping out of the rocker cover, but not excessive amounts. So I figure it must be getting burnt, but I've no blue smoke out the back or any smell of burning oil. I've no white gunge in any of the oil, and there's no oil in the coolant so I'm ruling out head gasket for now.

 

Having done a search on here I understand I'm probably looking at either piston rings or valve stems? The engine is probably quite worn (140k+) and am I right in thinking increased blow by would force more oil vapor through the pcv pipe back into the combustion chambers? The pcv was knackered and split apart so replaced it with a new one a couple of weeks ago. Oil was dripping out of this onto the exhaust manifold so I was getting an oil burning smell from that, but since I've had the new one the smell has ceased. Also as I say no smoke, and a mates AAA VR in his Golf has worn piston rings and has blue smoke to go with it, but even he's not getting throught the same amount of oil as i am. I was expecting the breather pipe and air intake pipe to be full of oil deposits if this was the case but they and the throttle body were all clean.

 

I've had the spark plugs out, but they weren't oiled up. There was oil on the outside of them, so that will be out of the rocker cover I guess. They were highly carbonated though, and the exhaust has a lot of black carbon deposits, so on a slightly seperate issue I think it might be running a bit rich, and not really sure what to do there either. :shrug:

 

So I'm a bit stumped all in all, I can't see any of the oil burning symptoms that I'm aware of: blue smoke, smell, oil on plugs, white gunge etc so wondering where the oil is going! :confused4: Would it be burning oil without any of those things showing up? It seems to run alright, haven't had any loss of power; it always seems willing to pull throughout the range, and is smooth. I don't mind topping the oil up like I'm refueling it if it runs ok just a bit confused and hoping it's not indicative of an underlying issue lying in wait!

[Supercharged 2]

What oil are you using?

[oneohtwo 8]

10W/40 as per the manual. it is a semi-synthetic though. How much would that affect things? The Golf chap mentioned above uses it in his VR and as I say doesn't get through as much, it's what they generally use where he works.

 

Full oil change needed?

[dukest 0]

if there's no blue smoke then its most likely to be valve stem seals. my 158k engine was using a litre every 650-700 miles previously but had a compression test done last month which proved fine so we changed the seals and it doesnt appear to be using any now.

[duckdown_hoodrat 0]

i thought stem seals would burn a little bit of oil under load? Mine is blue smoking a tiny bit, narrowed it down to stem seals. Done rocker gasket and a compression test, and that came back bang on

[dr_mat 0]

If you're losing oil and it's not going in the water then yes, you're burning it. The consensus seems to be that if you get a puff of blue smoke when you start the car after standing for a while then it's likely the valve stem seals dribbling down into the cylinders. If you get a puff of smoke when you go back on the throttle after a period on the overrun, chances are it's bore wear. But either way there *will* be tell-tale blue smoke. Just a question of if there's enough you'd be able to notice it when you're in the car..

[oneohtwo 8]

if there's no blue smoke then its most likely to be valve stem seals. my 158k engine was using a litre every 650-700 miles previously.....

 

This is pobably about what mine is using now. Got someone to drive behind me to check for smoke and their slightly vague verdict was: "there might have been a trace of smoke", so not surprising I haven't noticed any! I guess the next step will be a compression test to confirm what I'm looking at... (then after that try and discern if it is running rich... :roll: )

 

Cheers for all your help guys, much appreciated! What did Corrado owners do in the days before the forum?!

[Ben-B 0]

Since collecting my VR 10 days ago... I've done around 700 miles and it's taken 6 litres of oil.

 

Now Bill said that when I collected it, the oil level was fine (I have no reason to doubt him, although I didn't personally check, which I ought to have done). I drove it 300 miles home, and appeared fine, although there was A LOT of blue smoke when taking it above 5000 rpm.

 

The next day, went to Halfords to grab some supplies and the oil pressure light came on and the engine cut out, at traffic lights just before I got there. Started up fine and light went out, so drove the 200 metres there and checked the dipstick... was bone dry, so bought 5 litres of oil and it took 3 of those litres to take it to the mid-point on the dipstick.

 

Took my mate for a drive half hour drive, after which I gave it another litre to take it to the top of the dipstick.

 

Since then, I've checked the dipstick every other day, 5-10 minutes after turning the engine off, to allow all the oil to return to the sump, and it's always been between the lines, but I've topped it up when it's below halfway to nearly the top.

 

 

(I know I shouldn't have, but...) but last week I floored it when the engine was cold (I was trying to get through an annoying set of traffic lights before they changed, as they stay red for 3 minutes) and there was tonnes of blue smoke when it got above 3500 rpm, tonnes as in you could barely see the car behind.

 

In the last few days, once the oil temp is above 80, there's very little visible blue smoke until over 5500 rpm.

 

 

 

The exhaust is sooty, and quietly pops on overrun, so I suspect it's running pretty rich (haven't checked the spark plugs as that involves removing the Schrick manifold) but I'd guess they're black like the exhaust too.

 

 

Are these problems related? My mate thinks the burning oil might be to do with overfuelling, and if it's not he said it'll be valve stem seals.

 

Can anyone confirm this, or suggest an alternative diagnosis?

[dukest 0]

my fuel economy is bad and it had been suggested to me that the fact it was using lots of oil would mean that it would then chuck more fuel in to keep running right. cant say thats necessarily the case though as the fuel doesnt seeem to have improved since having the stem seals done.

 

6 litres in that many miles seems pretty scary :eek: , but at the same time, if i recall, Bill had just had a newly refurbed head put on? my problems started when i put a newly done head on mine and even though the people who'd had it done had paid in good faith for the refurb, it seems that the seals hadnt gone on well and progressively got worse. if the same happened to the head on yours and maybe the seals are shot already then perhaps that could be the issue. compression check sounds like a good precaution though..

[Ben-B 0]

my fuel economy is bad and it had been suggested to me that the fact it was using lots of oil would mean that it would then chuck more fuel in to keep running right. cant say thats necessarily the case though as the fuel doesnt seeem to have improved since having the stem seals done.

 

6 litres in that many miles seems pretty scary :eek: , but at the same time, if i recall, Bill had just had a newly refurbed head put on? my problems started when i put a newly done head on mine and even though the people who'd had it done had paid in good faith for the refurb, it seems that the seals hadnt gone on well and progressively got worse. if the same happened to the head on yours and maybe the seals are shot already then perhaps that could be the issue. compression check sounds like a good precaution though..

 

Yeah Bill did have a refurbed head put on... and within 3 weeks of having the car I'll have done more miles than he did in 3 years.

 

There doesn't appear to be any leaks, only ever a few drops when the car's been sat overnight, the sump appears to be oily though, so possibly the sump gasket, but it isn't losing that much from there.

 

I suspect it is the valve stem seals though... are they a big (ie expensive) job, and where is able to do a compression test?

[dukest 0]

DG did mine (after doing a comp test) with the kit that means the head doesnt have to come off (good obviously!) but I had some other stuff done at the same time though. Allow maybe £250?

[Ben-B 0]

DG did mine (after doing a comp test) with the kit that means the head doesnt have to come off (good obviously!) but I had some other stuff done at the same time though. Allow maybe £250?

 

Hmmmm, I'll speak to Awesome, as I am taking it there for a service soonish. Even if they just comp test, hopefully they can diagnose the problem, then I can ask around the trusted & respected VAG specialists and find the cheapest place :lol:

[dukest 0]

cool, although the manifold obviously has to come off to do both jobs so kind of worth being able to carry on after the compression test if you decide you need to!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Since collecting my VR 10 days ago... I've done around 700 miles and it's taken 6 litres of oil.

 

Now Bill said that when I collected it, the oil level was fine (I have no reason to doubt him, although I didn't personally check, which I ought to have done). I drove it 300 miles home, and appeared fine, although there was A LOT of blue smoke when taking it above 5000 rpm.

 

 

That isn't good :?

 

If it's had a new head and it's still smoking, it's the bores. Same thing happened to me. Had a new head put on a 93K thinking that would solve my oil consumption, but during a road trip with the missus, an extended period of over-run down a hill, followed by a bootful of revs at the bottom produced an almightly fog of blue smoke behind me :lol: Clearly ovalised bores!

 

What happens with worn / wearing engines is the oil will find other ways into the combustion chamber, so if you fix the top end leaking with new guides and seals, the only other way it can get burned is via worn rings / bores.

 

Anyway, I wasn't up for a rebuild at that point so I switched from quantum 10W/40 to Silkolene 10W/50 and that stopped it.

 

The motor Vince built for my turbo can over-run all day long and not puff any smoke, so both ends of the motor need to be tight to get a proper seal. It still chews through a litre every 2K ish though, maybe less. That's forged pistons for you :lol:

[Ben-B 0]

Hmmmm, if it gets any worse I'll whack some 10W-50 in there then and see if that sorts it.

 

If it doesn't, how much is a piston rings job?

 

Bearing in mind I'm buying the Gemini box, got the diff to go in that and will be getting the paddle clutch & lightened billet flywheel... Would it be better to buy another 2.9 VR, (or at least the block) and strip that down, get it all cleaned up, paint the block and gearbox so it's all nice and clean and shiny etc and stick that in with the refurbed head?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Hmmmm, if it gets any worse I'll whack some 10W-50 in there then and see if that sorts it.

 

If it doesn't, how much is a piston rings job?

 

Bearing in mind I'm buying the Gemini box, got the diff to go in that and will be getting the paddle clutch & lightened billet flywheel... Would it be better to buy another 2.9 VR, (or at least the block) and strip that down, get it all cleaned up, paint the block and gearbox so it's all nice and clean and shiny etc and stick that in with the refurbed head?

 

You can certainly try it chap. Opie Oils often have deals on the Silkolene, so £38 and a filter won't break the bank to see if thicker oil helps.

 

A Piston Rings job basically means an engine rebuild, which could run you £2300, assuming your head is OK, if not, add another £700ish on top. These are stealth prices as of a few years ago. Not sure what the current rates are.

 

This is why many people go down the 24V route because it's so much cheaper than rebuilding the 12V. Other options are good second hand engines as you say, such as a nice OBD2 2.8 from a late Highline Golf. You can still run that with your existing management and other toys, but the AAA engine code doesn't seem to suffer from bore wear like the ABV 2.9 does.

 

Honestly, the extra 100cc from the 2.9 really doesn't make any odds over a good 2.8, so don't limit your options to just the 2.9.

[Ben-B 0]

Hmmmm, if it gets any worse I'll whack some 10W-50 in there then and see if that sorts it.

 

If it doesn't, how much is a piston rings job?

 

Bearing in mind I'm buying the Gemini box, got the diff to go in that and will be getting the paddle clutch & lightened billet flywheel... Would it be better to buy another 2.9 VR, (or at least the block) and strip that down, get it all cleaned up, paint the block and gearbox so it's all nice and clean and shiny etc and stick that in with the refurbed head?

 

You can certainly try it chap. Opie Oils often have deals on the Silkolene, so £38 and a filter won't break the bank to see if thicker oil helps.

 

A Piston Rings job basically means an engine rebuild, which could run you £2300, assuming your head is OK, if not, add another £700ish on top. These are stealth prices as of a few years ago. Not sure what the current rates are.

 

This is why many people go down the 24V route because it's so much cheaper than rebuilding the 12V. Other options are good second hand engines as you say, such as a nice OBD2 2.8 from a late Highline Golf. You can still run that with your existing management and other toys, but the AAA engine code doesn't seem to suffer from bore wear like the ABV 2.9 does.

 

Honestly, the extra 100cc from the 2.9 really doesn't make any odds over a good 2.8, so don't limit your options to just the 2.9.

 

:puppydogeyes:

 

Would a AAA rebored an extra 100cc be just as likely to suffer bore wear... (as essentially that's what the 2.9 is isn't it?)

 

Could the 2.9 block handle being bored to 3.0, ( perhaps with forged pistons in the event that I go the snail route)

[big ben 10]

just stick a R32 lump in :nuts:

[Ben-B 0]

just stick a R32 lump in :nuts:

 

But isn't that more than a simple conversion? I'm not ready for something that big just yet

[big ben 10]

i think its a straight forward conversion which has a shed load of problems after...

 

be better off with a turbo anyway if you could get the 12v sorted

[WigsVR6 0]

Hi Ben my VR is currently under going a major engine refurb at this very moment. I'm having the timing chains/tensioner, clutch, head rebuilt + oversized piston rings - due to low compression in cylinders 3+6. I went through the very same thought procesess as you are going through - different engine/24V or have my engine worked on. I decided on the latter due to the cost envolved by going 24V and not knowing the history of replacement engines, I could end up back at square one going that route. My engine has just clocked over the 100 000 mile mark so going this route will (hopefully) see me with many years of happy motoring with piece of mind.

 

For all that work I've been quoted roughly 2k give or take. I'm hoping to pick the car up sometime this week so I'll get the finished price then (hope there aint a shock for me) If you want I can PM you the final price/actual work envolved once its been completed.

 

Alan

[big ben 10]

i think you should post it in here actually, be good for others in the same boat to know as well....

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Would a AAA rebored an extra 100cc be just as likely to suffer bore wear... (as essentially that's what the 2.9 is isn't it?)

 

I'm not sure mate. I wouldn't have thought the ABV is a different casting to the AAA, so possibly yes to that question. The Golf VR6s led and easier life than the Corrado VR6, due to a lower rev limit and the soggy suspension making it more of a cruiser than a sports car. I've never seen a late Golf VR smoking personally. Seen plenty of Corrado VRs smoking though :lol:

 

One thing's for sure, if you had a new engine you would look after it from day one with regular changes of good quality oil, and it will put in a good service life. Unfortunately it's the previous owners of cars that let the side down with mistreatment and lack of maintenance, BillCor excluded obviously, as we all know he loved it.

 

Could the 2.9 block handle being bored to 3.0, ( perhaps with forged pistons in the event that I go the snail route)

 

Yep, that's what I use, 83mm pistons. 2.8 = 81mm pistons and 2.9 = 82mm pistons. You can get 82.5mm 'over bore' pistons from the same maker as the factory ones (Mahle) which are uber quality and take the engine out to a true 2.9. 2897cc I believe, over your original 2861cc.

 

BTW, you can't get a proper 3.0 without more crank throw unfortunately, and that gets expensive....although I know of someone who's fudged an R32 crank into a 12V with shaved pistons to get the capacity.

[Ben-B 0]

Yeah Alan that'd be great, and as Him Ben said, would be good for others with the same potential issues to see the cost breakdown of things.

 

I think if I did go the engine rebuild route, then I'd get a 2nd engine stripped and rebuilt, so at least my car can go somewhere, even if the engine in it isn't perfect.

 

 

Kev, thanks for that...

if that is the case, I may look at stripping a 2nd engine, boring it for the 82.5mm pistons, rebuilding it... selling the spare head on... along with the gearbox/flywheel/clutch from both engines (as I'm replacing all that anyway) and hopefully should make back enough of the money that it won't be TOOOO expensive.

 

And like you said, can never know how they've treated the engine etc. Bill is a sound guy and he's put loads of money into the car so I know he's taken care of it... but any of the owners before could have not been so nice.

 

I'm more than happy to spend money on filters and fully synth oil, changing them every 3 months... cos I know that it'll be running as best as it can for as long as it can then... be like a new engine

[WigsVR6 0]

I'll post on here the price when I get my car back. The garage called me yesterday and said he wasn't happy with a tappy noise coming from the top end of the engine so the head will be coming back off for investigation :(