R1 Vs Stage 4 and Charge cooled Vs Intercooled Vs Water Inj?

[raddo_g60 0]

So in conclusion, on a budget one should opt for... :D

[LowG 0]

On a price basis goes down like this

 

intercooled

aquamist

chargecooled

 

From what i know intercooling and chargecooling are the best ways to go,aquamist would be last on my list.

Intercooler would be more efficient in high speeds and chargecooling is efficient in low speeds where intercooler is not so efficient due to less air passing through it. They all have the same effect, at the moment im working in a cold air inducion system which im hoping to get a good result out of.

Flow is also very important in a system, so a system with a intercooler and charge cooler set up as simply and with less bends as possible would be ideal.

[beavis 0]

A non specific intercooler kit can be retero fitted hacking stuff about quite cheaply but is always going to be a compromise as it is not taylored for the car, but a vast improvement over the stock corrado item. What you are paying for with a taylored kit is a cooler that fits without disturbing the bodywork of the car, looks factory, has effective header tanks welded to a brand new alloy core and neat clean alloy boost hosing so you have not got a snake of samco litering up the engine bay.

Charge coolers kits vary dramatically extremly, effective to darn right useless, this is dependent upon the size of the water/air exchangers used in the system, charge coolers and aquamist are great for applications where space is constricted as the pipework between the exchanges just carries water and you are not having to route the boost hoses themselfs though awkward routes or undesired locations.

Compound cooling using a charge cooler and intercooler is a bit of a overkill for most. The small gains you will get from improved throttle responce from a charge cooler at slow speed will soon dissopate after sitting in urban traffic for half an hour, then you will just have a heat soaked intercooler and charge cooler bath to make ya throttle dead. Charge cooler take longer to heat sync, but in general take longer to get back down to ambient tempreture when they have got hot too. Plus you have the added weight of another cooling system lurking about in your engine bay, The weight of 2 water exchangers, pump, hosing and the few litres of water in the system add up to quite a bit of extra weight.

[raddo_g60 0]

Well put :D

Sounds like nice front mount intercooler would be best starting point. Simple with less to go wrong and can add aquamist later to it when desired.

Why is it a common argument to "knock" intercoolers for being bad when travelling at low speeds, when this is realisitcally only ever going to affect standing starts? If it matters that much could you not just sit with the engine off for the time its sat there at the start of a sprint for example?

Is there a certain speed at which an intercooler will start flowing enough air to cool the charge efficiently? In my mind the end of first gear would be adequate enough ???

 

Bx

[stel g60 0]

you can make your own set up if you got the time and patience. i hear a citroen xsara diesel intercooler fits as its quite thin but these are only rumours. ive never checked it out.

ptstop do a kit 4 around 500 notes, im down there on monday so will check it out. good thing bout this kit is that it is tailored to the corry so there is no cutting or welding to be done. i got a nissan gtir calsonic intercooler while i was on holiday last year but never got round to fitting it cos i have to trim the front panel, make the pipes, relocate the inlet/outlets of the intercooler itself, make mounting brackets and and turn the battery round. all this so i could save a few bucks! still wouldve cost me bout £350 plus what i paid for the intercooler. works out roughly the same price wise. lot less hassle though.

[Guest]

cheesewire,

 

Hi

any chance of picking your brains ?

I have a mildly breathed on G60 rado and have just been offered a chargecooler setup off an esprit turbo thats modded to go on the corrado, i was then looking at getting an h2o/meth kit, what do you think ? i have a flowed and ported head, redtops, sns stage 5, toothed belt and pulley kit with 65mm pulley, bbm rsr charger outlet

 

cheers

Simon

[flusted 0]

if thats ians (g60bv)s charge cooler then yes get it, its a awesome bit of kit.

One thing that hasnt been brought up is with a FMIC, depending on pipe route, you can get boost drop due to the longer boost track.

You wont suffer from this with a c harge cooler though.

I think im loosing upto 2psi through my FMIC as its huge

[ProdigalSon 1]

The small gains you will get from improved throttle responce from a charge cooler at slow speed will soon dissopate after sitting in urban traffic for half an hour, then you will just have a heat soaked intercooler and charge cooler bath to make ya throttle dead. Charge cooler take longer to heat sync, but in general take longer to get back down to ambient tempreture when they have got hot too. Plus you have the added weight of another cooling system lurking about in your engine bay, The weight of 2 water exchangers, pump, hosing and the few litres of water in the system add up to quite a bit of extra weight.

 

How hard would it be to have the water pump for the chargecooler switch off when you are sat in traffic (or when moving at

 

Or is that all just too complex? :?

 

I'm trying to work out the best cooling upgrade to my stock intercooler - seems like I'm not alone! :wink:

 

My G60's being rebuilt at G-Werks on Monday, so I will be chatting with the guys there - I guess it mainly comes down to budget and how much work you want to do/are able to do yourself.

 

Interesting to get lots of opinions and experiences on these options though :)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Well, tbh, the whole point of the prerad is it cools the water as it flows through it by transfer the heat to the metal, so it's best to leave the pump going. Leaving it stagnant in the rad will have limited success I think, but there would be a small capillary flow action going on.

 

What Beavis described there is a rubbish, ineffective Chargecooler. Good ones are excellent and do not heatsoak. Water is the best thermal conductor there is and the pressure loss through a [good] chargecooler is negligable, so a much better throttle response, especially with turbos.

 

The highest my air intake temp reached (VR6 Turbo) when sat in traffic for god knows how many hours, and it was 25 deg C outside, was 45 deg C....and I don't have a fan on my prerad! A normal VR6 would see intake temps approaching 80-90 degs in that situation. But I have a 3 gallon (US) tank in the boot with G12 and Water Wetter, plust a 26" x 8" prerad and a HUUUUGE pump. On a cruise and on full boost, IATs are 4 - 8 deg above ambient.

 

You can get similar results with a really big FMIC, but not without monumental pressure losses..... which on a turbo car gives a fluffy pedal and lag.

[ProdigalSon 1]

Leave the fan on then :wink: Got it.

 

The highest my air intake temp reached (VR6 Turbo) when sat in traffic for god knows how many hours, and it was 25 deg C outside, was 45 deg C....and I don't have a fan on my prerad! A normal VR6 would see intake temps approaching 80-90 degs in that situation. But I have a 3 gallon (US) tank in the boot with G12 and Water Wetter, plust a 26" x 8" prerad and a HUUUUGE pump. On a cruise and on full boost, IATs are 4 - 8 deg above ambient.

:shock: Sweet! :)

 

The only downside in my G60 would be the extra weight (and complexity of plumbing) added - although on a stock unlightened G60 the kerb weight increase would probably be less than when filling up the fuel tank!

 

VR6 turbo - so what's that generating - about 350bhp? :wink: :D

 

You can get similar results with a really big FMIC, but not without monumental pressure losses..... which on a turbo car gives a fluffy pedal and lag.

 

Yep, can see that would make sense. Which chargecooler are you using?

 

Seems that the chargecooler.co.uk barrel design is pretty good, but a bit more expensive than the 'entry level' ones...

 

Cheers

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah CrazyDave is running one of those PWR 'barrel' coolers. When I last saw him, he'd just pulled into the carpark after a good drive and the cooler core was stone cold to the touch. Impressive stuff considering his setup is much smaller than mine and it's living in the furnace known as a VR6 engine bay :lol: But the difference between mine and his is mine is rated to 700whp, his will support about 350 I think. I don't even need the pump running on mine most of the time, A) because I'm only running 11psi (yep, 300 at the wheels) and B) it's just too overkill for 11psi, LOL!....but I like overkill. You never know when you'll need the extra. :lol:

 

I'm using a chargecooler from the states, made by some nutter who builds 9 second FWD VWs....http://www.spturbo.com

 

Some chap called G60_BV on here made his own chargecooler IIRC, looked pretty good and didn't cost much to do.

 

In terms of weight and plumbing etc, that is the main reason people are put off Chargecoolers. Unfortunatley water needs to be contained, unlike air ;-) The only heavy bit is the water in tank, which in mine is a fair amount, but in Dave's barrel one, is hardly anything at all. Thing is though, the guy who designed mine was running 700whp, so weight wasn't really an issue for him :lol: Plus, the weight of the tank in my boot is over the rear wheels, which is a good place to have it imo....helps with lateral traction round the corners!

Plumbing is pretty easy.....it really does depend on your goals and how far you're prepared to go 8)

[ProdigalSon 1]

Love the idea of the barrel chargecooler, just wish that they made one a bit smaller, a bit cheaper, and rated to 250bhp... That would probably be all I'd need, especially if I get to having boost temps of

 

Wonder if I could fab one from an extruded honeycomb of aluminium... :)

 

Big dreams, little expertise :(

[Kevin Bacon 5]

What is it they say? From small acorns do big Oaks grow.....so stop dreaming and get on with it :lol:

[ProdigalSon 1]

Well... part one begins on Monday - a charger refurb, plus 68mm pulley and chip, and stand-alone oil supply :D

 

Will dyno it a couple of weeks later once the G60 has bedded down (my local tuner said £30 for setting up, a couple of runs + printouts), to get a new baseline :wink:

 

More plans beyond that, but £1k is enough for one day!

 

Does anyone know what you can wring out of the G60 engine without modding the heads/bottom end? This is my daily driver (mainly because Corrados are so rewarding to drive!) so I'm not really interested in any mods that will need a rebuild after each trip to the shops :lol:

 

I'll see if I can barn up a design for a ghetto chargecooler :wink:

 

It may never get past the drawing board, but will be good fun.

 

D*mn I love being a Corrado owner. :D

[CrazyDave 0]

You'll get away with a smaller barrel charge cooler if your target power requirement is less.

 

My car was kitted out for 400hp, not that I ever wanted to go that high. So the turbo, cooler, ARP bolts, clutch, mounts etc was all sized for that amount.

 

If you only want 250 then you can come down a size on cooler. Speak to one of the Daves at Chargecooler.co.uk.

 

The extra weight is minimal, the cooler weighs about 6kg with water in, 10" rad about 1-2kg, pump 1kg, plus the pipes and the little tank. I reckon 10-12kg. More than an FMIC yes.

 

What about trying water spray over the CC (like Subarus etc). Adiabatic cooling is very effective and cheap. A few fine nozzle sprays and a small washer pump should do the trick, triggered by throttle position, from the washer bottle? Worth a try?

 

Oh and yes, owning a Corrado is great. When they work!

[ProdigalSon 1]

Think I may just give one of the Daves a call, but probably in a month or so, when my wallet feels slightly less bruised... :wink:

 

Anyway, I have to enjoy my newfound (estimated) 190bhp for a while before I raise the bar again! :lol:

 

Speaking of which, is there any point in uprating the brakes if you're under 200bhp?

 

How would you trigger misting of the intercooler (as I think you meant, not CC) from the throttle position? What would you use as a pump to drive the nozzles?

 

Thanks for the info, it's good to get someone's first-hand experience, and an achievable target to aim at. :)