Non -starting of VR6 engine.

[craigowl 0]

Not been out in car a lot recently - decided to see if it was fit for hospital run on Monday.

Plenty of turning of engine but no firing. Tank has fuel OK. Some petrol smell in bay.

 

Clue - you know how familiar you can become with the least difference in behaviour in a car you have had for a while?

Well, when the key went into starting slot, I thought it felt a bit different initially.

Remember reading of failure of ignition lock on these cars.

Could that be the problem, guys?

Original component from 1995 as far as I know.

Any other theories - glad to hear of them. Have checked fuel, etc fuses in fuse box.

All electrics run, fine, too.

Edited September 10, 2012 by craigowl

[Supercharged 2]

Could also be the reader coil for the factory imob - you will see a fault code saying 'engine start blocked' and sometimes an easy fix with some WD40

 

Other thing to check is the ECU relay (109), worth re-seating this.

 

Could also be the ignition switch if original... and also the crank sensor but I would look at the above first.

[craigowl 0]

Could also be the reader coil for the factory imob - you will see a fault code saying 'engine start blocked' and sometimes an easy fix with some WD40

 

Other thing to check is the ECU relay (109), worth re-seating this.

 

Could also be the ignition switch if original... and also the crank sensor but I would look at the above first.

 

Thanks for that S'charged.

I think immobiliser is newer one than original.

Will check ECU.

Cant remember where crank sensor is - Alex G60 bought my Bentley handbook when he caught a sniff of me possibly selling the C.

The Bentley has gone and the C is still here.

I can google crank sensor - I think I remember what they look like.

Thanks again

[RW1 0]

Have you tried flooring the accelerator while turning the starter? If it starts, then won't idle, the ISV has stuck closed. Sometimes a sharp tap with the handle of a largish screwdriver may free it. It it does run, then VCDS Output Checks and exercise the ISV option so it ticks for about 30 seconds to get the stiffness out of it.

 

.

[craigowl 0]

Tried the floored accelerator one, RW1, thanks.

ECU relay removed and replaced - nice clean terminals, S'charged.

Leaving it till tomorrow now - it's pi$$ing down now and getting dark.

Cant help focusing on the ignition barrel - this car has done a lot of starting just to move it in and out of the garage or put it somewhere for a wash! WE both need to get out more.

[fla 9]

Did you use a new ecu relay? You can test it by applying 12v directly to se if it closes circuit. Thereafter pulse it so you know its working ok. Have you got a spark?

[Timbo 0]

I would start with a new ignition switch. Easy to do and gives you peace of mind that it's not going to fail at an inconvenient time. If it fixes the problem it's a bonus.

[craigowl 0]

Hi and thanks fla.

Not a new ecu relay - just took the original out and reseated it.

Can you detail test?

I have a multimeter, too, bu know little really.

 

---------- Post added at 12:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 AM ----------

 

I would start with a new ignition switch. Easy to do and gives you peace of mind that it's not going to fail at an inconvenient time. If it fixes the problem it's a bonus.

 

Hi Timbo

 

Looks a bit too much for me that one - rather pay someone to fix that - you have to remove steering wheel cowling and drill holes, no? I agree with you that it will be a good thing to do anyway.

 

Recent change which may have been culpable, was connecting of new trickle charger. This has replaced old one I had for years but dropped it - doh.

New one is good - Swedish, but maybe too much shock for the system somewhere?

Fuel pump relay might have failed - it is original though fuel pump is newish from a couple of years ago.

 

---------- Post added at 1:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 PM ----------

 

Have ordered some relatively low cost replacements to see if they cure problem.

ECU relay

Fuel pump relay

crank position sensor.

 

Thanks for advice so far, guys.

[dr_mat 0]

Crank position sensor isn't a low cost replacement, if it's the right one! I'm assuming you don't have VAGCOM available, which is a pity cos my bet is you'll find pretty quickly what the problem is.

 

FWIW the "factory immobiliser" is based off a chip in the ignition key - similar to most modern cars. Any late VR6 with a coil pack uses this system and it's baked into the ECU, it's not the remote you might lock or unlock the car with. If the reader coil in the steering column has gone (usually just the contacts to its control box get corroded from what I understand) then the ECU will generally start the car initially but then it'll die within a couple of seconds. I doubt you have that problem, in other words!

[CazzaVR 0]

Was gonna suggest fuel pump relay, but see you've ordered one 8)

 

No need to drill anything to replace the ignition switch, it's the barrel that needs drilling. The switch is easy really, just the tiny screw that's fiddly.

[craigowl 0]

Crank position sensor isn't a low cost replacement, if it's the right one! I'm assuming you don't have VAGCOM available, which is a pity cos my bet is you'll find pretty quickly what the problem is.

 

FWIW the "factory immobiliser" is based off a chip in the ignition key - similar to most modern cars. Any late VR6 with a coil pack uses this system and it's baked into the ECU, it's not the remote you might lock or unlock the car with. If the reader coil in the steering column has gone (usually just the contacts to its control box get corroded from what I understand) then the ECU will generally start the car initially but then it'll die within a couple of seconds. I doubt you have that problem, in other words!

 

Sensor is this one - I suppose it will be generic, dr_mat?

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290653615231&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:GB:3160

 

Maybe will upgrade to oem if it turns out to be that component that is faulty.

Dont have VAGCOM unfortunately.

Is late VR6 with coilpack. I had previous owners alarm removed by a top VAG autoelectrician when it became a nuisance and kept coming on - about 11 years ago now.

A Laserline immobiliser was then fitted. No remote control opening doors. Kept it simple.

Had no problem with anything to do with locking/unlocking/starting/immobiliser until now.

Edited September 10, 2012 by craigowl

[Dox 23]

If its was the crank sensor then there would be no fuel injected or spark at the plug, crank it, remove a plug, if its fuel soaked then you have an ignition problem, hold the plug in its lead against the engine block with a hammer handle and get someone to crank the car, do you see a spark at the plug?

 

Relays can usually have the covers removed and contacts checked by eye, you can use a pp3 9v battery to fire a relay to watch its functionality.

[craigowl 0]

On my own this weekend so cant crank car and look under bonnet, Dox.

Interested in your stuff about relays, though.

Covers can come off, possibly?

With the pp3 battery how do you fire a relay - which terminals - can you blow it?

[Dox 23]

If its was the crank sensor then there would be no fuel injected or spark at the plug, crank it, remove a plug, if its fuel soaked then you have an ignition problem, hold the plug in its lead against the engine block with a hammer handle and get someone to crank the car, do you see a spark at the plug?

 

Relays can usually have the covers removed and contacts checked by eye, you can use a pp3 9v battery to fire a relay to watch its functionality.

 

I meant you can unclip the covers with a small screwdriver and look at the contacts.

 

If you remove a relay it will have a diagram on it to show the circuits, basically a relay is a heavy current switch, its fired by a small current via a dash switch or ECU etc that couldn't handle the amout of current itself.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_relay

[craigowl 0]

OK been into ecu relay - it buzzes to life OK with pp3.

 

Thanks for that helpful info Dox - you learn something new every day. I missed out on electronics for the past 67 years.

 

---------- Post added at 7:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 5:27 PM ----------

 

So after a lot of faffing about on this sunny day I have not read all the Sunday paper as intended, but have eliminated the ecu and fuel pump relays as culprits, cleaned the ISV, seen the warning lights come on as the engine turns healthily due to new, well charged battery and can smell petrol, ordered a few parts on eBay I probably do not need-- - but still no firing.

 

Coil is newish - replaced a few years ago.

What's left now is the ignition switch? - is that the only thing?

Would the autoelectrician that fitted the immobiliser be the best guy to attend to the problem do you think?

Edited September 10, 2012 by craigowl

[dr_mat 0]

That's an awesome price for a crank sensor, if it's genuine. Even if it's not, it's a good deal. Think they're £140+VAT at the dealer..! The car won't put in fuel *or* spark, however, if the crank sensor is gone.

Temperature sensors? MAF? You can unplug the MAF and it'll start and run, assuming all else is good. Got a friendly local with VAGCOM?

[Supercharged 2]

http://the-corrado.net/showthread.php?3167-Emergency-Ignition-Switch-Bypass

[craigowl 0]

1 - So can the immobiliser (Laserline) allow the engine to turn strongly and illuminate oil/battery light yet not spark fuel (which I can smell after cranking)?

2 - From what dr_mat says, the crank sensor wont put fuel in or spark if it has failed. Clearly, it has not failed then as the fuel is being delivered going by the smell?

[dr_mat 0]

1) the immobiliser *could* be hooked into any circuit - including the trigger lines for the spark, so yes that's always possible.

2) correct. The ECU won't do nuffink until it knows where top dead centre is, and it won't guess that based on the cam sensor alone, it must have a solid signal from the crank.

[fla 9]

have you checked the sparks after cranking as per Dox earlier? Also, is there fuel in the return line of the fuel rail ie is the fpr opening to allow a 'complete circuit' for fuel?

[craigowl 0]

I suspect there may be no sparks, Hasan, but have been unable to check as on my own here last few days. Can smell petrol. Checked all I can. Ignition barrel/immobiliser prime suspect after eliminating relays, crank sensor, ISV, etc.

Consequently I have called our great local autoelectrician (details on request) who removed my piggin' nuisance factory-fitted alarm/immobiliser and fitted another.

He should come tomorrow.

Thanks for all input guys.

Will let you know the outcome, of course. All good stuff for the Corrado knowledge pool. I have learnt a few new things in 48 hours, too, thanks to the Forum.

[craigowl 0]

After 2 visits to my car by the autoelectrician, he has narrowed it down to

(i) immobiliser (have ordered one from eBay)

(ii)ecu

 

He is muttering something about how the local VAG garage will not give him the "7-figure code", despite him having done jobs for them for years. It is under new less-friendly management (familiar story?).

 

He says the best thing would be if I could get (with correct part numbers) ecu, immobiliser, barrel halo and keys. Purple Tom had them a year ago, but he has not answered my PM as yet. Anyone know him?

 

I cant get my head round how that business of sending the ecu to Vince at Stealth for immo delete works.

Does that sound like a good option?

Edited September 11, 2012 by craigowl

[Jim Bowen 1]

That little "halo" ring on the ignition caused mine to not start for the previous owner. I noticed it had been cut off each end and a new one fitted.

 

 

 

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk 2

[craigowl 0]

Bump for post #22

Questions.

 

 

Some of you guys will be able to answer theez, pleez!

[craigowl 0]

Nobody?

 

This is like the time I upset the cannibals - gave me the cold shoulder.