Snapped CV joint

[eugopnosaj 0]

Ok so yesterday me and the missus went to Cambridge, had a nice walk, went to a pub for lunch, did some punting, the usual. The drive there was fine no problems. On the way back was when the issue started....a couple of times we could hear some tyre squeal, this on a hot day is not unusual however I wasn't driving like a pleb and actually being a good driver. Anyway, nearly home (she lives in St. Albans) coming off the A1M at Hatfield, approx. 2 miles from her house we heard a clunk and a horrible squealing noise. I immediately pulled over as the steering wasn't right and it sounded like scraping metal so I thought a tyre might have developed a problem but after checking the wheels I couldn't see an immediate problem. So I pulled back onto the road and the problem became more obvious, the front O/S brake was binding, you could hear it more, as soon as I came off the power the car would slow down really quickly and more obviously you could smell it.

 

I got back to her house and you could see the brake smoking and it was crazy hot. I turned the steering to check if anything had become lodged or anything else obvious but I couldn't see anything. Without tools I couldn't do anything so I had to call the break down and get the car recovered. My first thoughts were that since I have got an ABS problem it might have been something attributed to that, however that would cause the brakes to unlock, not lock. The recovery guy wanted to release the brake but I told him that might not solve the problem and would prefer it just to be recovered. We talked a bit on the way home and he thought it might have been a problem with the wheel bearing as he said it wasn't quite aligned when he tried to get it on the dolly.

 

 

So we got back to my fathers house as today (monday) the body shop was supposed to be collecting the car to get my door replaced following the accident the other day at work but after finding what was really the problem its clear there was no way it could go to the bodyshop. I pulled the hub off of the Speedline and found this.....

 

 

The CV joint has completely sheared after the spline!! You can see where the metal is of sub standard quality. This part was replaced about 3 weeks ago...for a pattern part from ECP...

 

It has also caused the wheel bearing to completely shatter...

 

 

 

[Jim 2]

Jesus! Not something you'd want to happen at speed! Was it the GKN CV joint you fitted or a different brand?

[eugopnosaj 0]

Q-Drive from ECP, I was doing around 60/65ish i think.

 

Not sure how to tackle this when I go into the shop tomorrow. Obviously its pretty bad and could have been a lot worse and goes to show the quality of pattern parts. I'm not saying that all pattern parts are bad, it could have been a bad batch but even still, you'd never expect something such as a CV joint, which has so much stress, to fail, especially so soon after been fitted. Must have been less than 500miles....

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

Silly question but it was torqued up correctly? There are 2 different ways to torque the hub nut. One of the methods involves a high torque and the other a fairly low one.

 

To me, experience says that's been torqued up far too tight.

 

Apologies if you did it correctly, but there are a lot of garages out there who just air gun these nuts down and send them out the door.

 

If the nut is done up too much, it can bind the bearing causing it to overheat. When you match that heat to a cv shaft that is under high tension when it shouldn't be it leads to this exact style of clean shear.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Sean_Jaymo

[eugopnosaj 0]

We didn't use an air gun to tighten it, I know what you mean though and my dad's been doing this for years and used to run a garage so I trust his judgement :) We replaced the passengers side at the same time although that one was from GSF and have had no problems with it so far

[davidwort 0]

that is odd, I seem to remember some issue with the types of splines in the hub on plus axles, more than one type possibly, related to the hub nut tightening variation that Sean mentioned? what condition are the shaft splines and innner part of the hub? I wonder if play developed that then caused vibration and forces on the cv end.

[eugopnosaj 0]

The splines are in good condition, the shaft is a bit pitted but there was no mention of play at the mot. It seemed ok when we swapped the CV joints before but we didn't give it a proper inspection I must admit.

 

What issues are you thinking about? I haven't heard of any relating to the splines? It'd be interesting to know what differences there are?

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

I know it's a bit of a cop out, but read this post. It goes into plenty of detail about the differences.

 

Click

Edited July 9, 2013 by Sean_Jaymo

[Stonejag 10]

Wow, that's quite an impressive failure! You'd be on pretty solid legal ground to get ECP to pay for replacement parts, labour, consequential damage (wheel bearing) and recovery costs - if they look like they're going to refuse when you talk to them in person then just take them through the small claims track, it only costs £30. 'Not fit for the purpose for which it was sold' springs to mind...

 

Stone

[joebloggsVR69 0]

ECP will probably claim it wasn't fitted properly... Think it would be difficult to prove they're at fault

 

I never buy anything mechanical from ECP/GSF, it's a false economy.

I'd rather get the proper quality part from VW from the outset

[Supercharged 2]

Yep Q-drive stuff is really poor quality, always go for OEM brands like GKN, Conti, Hengst, SKF etc

 

This sort of pattern stuff will get an old Golf through an MOT but you're talking a 130+ MPH sports car here - don't risk it!!

[Jim Bowen 1]

Just curious and thinking out loud, but could it be possible for the bearing to fail and then cause the wheel to seize up and in turn breaking the cv joint?

 

---------- Post added at 4:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 4:18 PM ----------

 

Also, are there two types of hub nut? as yours looks totally different to mine

[Supercharged 2]

Just curious and thinking out loud, but could it be possible for the bearing to fail and then cause the wheel to seize up and in turn breaking the cv joint?

 

Also, are there two types of hub nut? as yours looks totally different to mine

 

I was thinking that but I've never seen a CV sheer... front bearing usually give a bit of warning / humming etc and don't fail catastrophically like that.

 

Yeah 2 types of nut, plus suspension uses a 12 point type with in-built washer and the base suspension models use a 6 sided with separate washer although they can be interchanged.

 

I can't see the washer in the photo - was it definitely fitted?? Was the wheel torque'd up correctly to 265Nm?

[Jim 2]

If you're using the 12 point star nut, you don't fit the washer. You only fit it with the 6 sided bolt type CV joints I believe!

[Supercharged 2]

If you're using the 12 point star nut, you don't fit the washer. You only fit it with the 6 sided bolt type CV joints I believe!

 

You can see the 6 side nut in the pic Jim but no washer...

[eugopnosaj 0]

The 6 pointed nut is utter crap, its not a nylock like the 12 pointed one, instead its 'crimped' at the end and just cuts the thread of the CV joint. The photo was taken with the end of the CV joint sat on the kitchen worktop, everything else was still attached to the car, the washer was there still in with the wheel. I can't say it was torqued up correctly as we didn't check it.

 

The N/S CV joint I think is a GKN one. I went back to ECP and they weren't helpful, the manager didn't care that it broke and could have caused a serious accident, and wouldn't upgrade me to the better quality part. He said if I wanted it I'd have to pay for it. Bear in mind it was my grandad's funeral yesterday, I was not happy. He gave me three options, which he thought were really good options....a like for like replacement, for another pattern part, they'd return the part and service it, and if found to be faulty they'd give me the better quality part, during this time I'd be without the use of the car, or buy the better part at my expense...at which point I argued and he still refused, even to keep me and my family as customers. The additional cost was only £36...

 

So, I told them I wanted a refund, that I was going to take the matter higher, that I wanted them to return and check the part and I wanted a full report, and that I'd never shop there again. Oh, also passing this information on to you lot, and my friends....

 

So I went back to GSF as i needed the part that morning to rebuild it so it could go to the garage for the door repair, I bought the OEM bearing and CV joint. It was the 12 pointed nut with build in washer, needless to say I will check once its back from the bodyshop that it is torqued up correctly.

[Supercharged 2]

 

 

So I went back to GSF as i needed the part that morning to rebuild it so it could go to the garage for the door repair, I bought the OEM bearing and CV joint. It was the 12 pointed nut with build in washer, needless to say I will check once its back from the bodyshop that it is torqued up correctly.

 

Sorry to hear about you Granddad mate :-(

 

I would check you've got the correct part from GSF though as the GKN ones I use all come with a 6 sided nut - part number should be 302175

 

---------- Post added at 7:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 7:52 AM ----------

 

^ Sorry ignore that - is this for a VR6??? If so then it should be a 12 point nut and the one supplied by ECP must have been the wrong part for the car I reckon, hence why it broke!

[Jim 2]

It's not that clear cut. Look at my VR for example which did have a CV joint with the washer and 6 sided nut on one side... I believe early VR's did have this setup on them.

 

It's hard to take the moral out of this story. I'd have said "always buy the higher quality part where the option exists" but the part they sold SHOULD be fit for purpose. It shouldn't fail like that. And for the guy at ECP to be so uninterested is - terrible. I think you took the right course of action - get the refend then escalate your complaint.

 

Also seems relevant and on topic but read Volkswizards project VR6 'blog' here:

 

http://www.volkswizard.co.uk/carsforsale/n817byb.htm

 

Scroll down to the update on 27/5/13 - about ECP, supplying the wrong parts consistently and basically fobbing the guy off. Insanity because he's a trader / dealer and would be buying parts on a regular basis for servicing cars but clearly they don't give a damn about his custom either. And that is basically what you're up against.

[eugopnosaj 0]

@jim I've had problems before with ECP and reading your post makes everything clearer. I definitely won't be using them again and anything, even the pattern parts should still be fit for purpose...

 

@supercharged. I could e wrong about the N/S being GKN I just remembered briefly seeing the box. I can't remember the new O/S one but its definitely the more expensive part with the 12 point nut with the built in washer.

[Supercharged 2]

What car is it going on, a VR6??

[VW_OwneR_85 2]

judgeing by the photo the cv doesn't seem to have failed due to being the wrong type cv for the vr just poor quality materials, if the vr was to powerful for that cv it wouldn't cause the cv to break as it did here , it would be the splines or anything before the splines ,i.e the joint itself, it certainly wouldn't be that section that broke, as that's only under pressure from the torque of the nut, the splines is what is holding the weight and torque of the vehicle, only other thing that makes sense is the torque of the nut , {some one mentioned earlier} but then again if the material is utter crap then its going to be weaker then it should be anyway, ive allways known these nuts to be done up FT tight! and iv done a few now FT tight with no problems,

[eugopnosaj 0]

It was on my VR, the Valver is off the road trying to be sold. The nut wasn't done up with a torque wrench so I cannot verify how tight it was but my dad tighened it and like I said before he's owned and ran his own garage and built/rebuilt many cars and I trust his judgement.

 

We've replaced CV joints before on other cars in the same manner, and this is thr first instance where it has failed like this.

 

The splines were good, still nice and sharp and as mentioned above no damage was caused inside there. I can only attribute it to poor quality material and we could go on and on about other causes but this is the most obvious. Its also been mentioned that the Q drive parts, including the part I bought are of poor quality and had I known about this prior I wouldn't have bought it. Like I said, we replaced the N/S at a similar time with a joint from GSF, fitted it in the same manner and that hasn't failed....

 

I guess just let this be a lesson to us all, as well as myself. OEM are OEM for a reason...and the VR, with the power they do produce, deserve high quality parts...

Edited July 11, 2013 by eugopnosaj

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

The joys of far east monkey metal!

[Jim 2]

It was on my VR, the Valver is off the road trying to be sold. The nut wasn't done up with a torque wrench so I cannot verify how tight it was but my dad tighened it and like I said before he's owned and ran his own garage and built/rebuilt many cars and I trust his judgement.

 

We've replaced CV joints before on other cars in the same manner, and this is thr first instance where it has failed like this.

 

The splines were good, still nice and sharp and as mentioned above no damage was caused inside there. I can only attribute it to poor quality material and we could go on and on about other causes but this is the most obvious. Its also been mentioned that the Q drive parts, including the part I bought are of poor quality and had I known about this prior I wouldn't have bought it. Like I said, we replaced the N/S at a similar time with a joint from GSF, fitted it in the same manner and that hasn't failed....

 

I guess just let this be a lesson to us all, as well as myself. OEM are OEM for a reason...and the VR, with the power they do produce, deserve high quality parts...

 

Make sure you're sitting down before you ring VW for a price on a CV joint.. I think a VR one is something obscene like £200+VAT :( I remember finishing up the phone call to my local stealers in a state of shock, shortly before going and getting a GKN one from EuroCarParts!

[eugopnosaj 0]

Make sure you're sitting down before you ring VW for a price on a CV joint.. I think a VR one is something obscene like £200+VAT :( I remember finishing up the phone call to my local stealers in a state of shock, shortly before going and getting a GKN one from EuroCarParts!

 

Haha, I guess I meant OEM equivilent