G60 No spark, but after ground hall sender I get it momentanely, then disappears again.

[KarlosG60 2]

Hi everyone,

I've been struggling with this issue on the last month with no clue about what is wrong. 

Some day, after parking the car, doesn't run anymore. It got some problems before: bad idle, very loud explosions at 3000RPM... 

So when it didn't run up anymore, I start checking ignition system, fuel system, relays... Finally replace ignition coil because didn't see spark on it with old one but it doesn't solve the issue.

The last day I worked on the car I almost get it run, because (like I said at the title thread) after grounded the inner pin of the Hall sender connector I got spark on four spark plugs when I ground them and turn key to ignition. So I tried to run engine and I  almost get it because sound clearly like a engine run, but then is gone again. I grounded again the hall inner pin, because seems to me like this was the "thing" that did the trick, but doesn't work, again I haven't spark at spark plugs. At this point I'm a little bit confused. 

I suspect on: 
- Hall sender (got 10.8V on outer pins, so I don't know)
- Bad ECU ground (How can I check it?)
- Bad wiring. Some wires are tight because the age.

This is my list of checkings I've been doing for last month. Please, feel completely free to correct me if I'm doing something wrong or my English makes you hurt.
 

Check goal	How to	Bentley	Expected value / Result	Your value	Good?	What to do
IGNITION COIL
Primary resistance	Resistance between 1 green and 15 black with Multimeter on 200 ohms scale.	28.2	0.5 to 0.8 ohms		Y
Secondary resistance	Resitance between 15 (+) and 4 (wire) with Multimeter on 20K scale	28.2	2400 to 3500	3.6 kohms	Y
ECU signal to coil	LED to 30 (+) and black wire of the coil (terminal 15)		LED should be shrink		Y
Simulate coil spark	1) Positive (15) of the ignition coil direct to (+) battery. 2) Wire from ground to terminal 4 of the ignition coil with a gap of 1-2mm between them. 3) Wire to terminal 1 (-) 4) Quickly touch battery negative with the wire from terminal 1 (-)		Spark must be visible at ignition coil terminal 4.		Y
ECU sends pulses to coil	LED into 1 and 15. Start engine. LED should be flicker	28.9	LED flicker		R
Green wire has continuity	Continuity between green wire (1) to the coil and pin 25 of the ECU		Continuity exists		Y
12V to the coil	LED to terminal 15 and battery (+)		LED light up		Y
12V between black and green wrires	Voltimeter to green and black wires. Ignition and starter.		12V???	11.8V and ~10V	R
12V at G1/4	I don't know. Is necessary this check?
Continuity at G1/4	I don't know. Is necessary this check?
SPARK PLUGS and SPARK PLUG WIRES
Spark plugs are good	Check resistance between opposite sides		5kohms to 15kohms	Spark plug 1: Spark plug 2: Spark plug 3: Spark plug 4:
Spark plugs wires are good
Spark exists	1) Pull out fuel pump relay. 2) Ground the side of the plug to good ground. 3) Starter		Spark should be visible	Left to right from the front of the engine FIRST TRY AFTER GROUNDING INNER PIN OF THE HALL SENDER AND GETING SPARK AT IGNITION COIL PLUG Spark 1: OK Spark 2: OK Spark 3: OK Spark 4: OK After getting spark at 4 spark plugs, the engine did a little sound of run up, but quickly gone. Check again 4 spark plugs and there no spark. Then, I repeat the check of grounding inner pin of the Hall Sender connector and check again the spark plugs: Spark 1: Spark 2: Spark 3: NO Spark 4:	R
Spark at ignition coil plug	1) Green wire to negative of the ignition coil 2) Black wire (15+) to ignition coil positive (+) 3) Coil plug close to ground (1-2mm) 4) Pull out fuel pump relay 5) Start engine		Spark should be visible at coil plug	No spark	N	Check Hall Sender
ECU Relay socket
12V socket 4	Check socket 4 for 12V		12V	12V	Y
12V at socket 6 at ignition	LED to socket 6 at ignition		12V	12V	Y
12V at socket (?) (what socket is pin 87)	LED to socket of the pin87 of the relay when the relay activates		12V	12V	Y
Continuity pin 87	Continuity between pin 87 and ECU pin 14		12V	12V	Y
ECU Relay (brand new from VW before the issue)
Relay is working	Pin 85 direct to battery (-). Pin 86 direct to (+). Does it click? If Yes: check continuity over 30 and 87 with multimeter If exists: relay it's ok				Y
HALL SENDER (https://youtu.be/ggIlnr5wJeI)
Clean sender with contact cleaner
Receives 12V	Multimeter to outer terminals of harness connector	28.9	10V minimum	10.8	Y
Hall sender sends signal to make spark at ignition coil	1) Disconnect injector ramp harness to avoid injectors fill cylinders with gasoline. 2) Pull out fuel pump relay also. 3) Ignition key ON 4) Ground inner pin of Hall sender connector. Everytime you ground, spark at ignition coil should be visible and injector should work https://youtu.be/95PkgSavOCo		Spark at ignition coil wire	Spark visible	Y	Replace Hall sender
ECU
Starter power has 12V	Check ECU pin 1 for 12V at ignition		12V
Fuel Pump relay has 12V	Check ECU pin 3 for 12V at ignition		12V
Injector power has 12V	Check ECU pin 12 for 12V at ignition		12V
Power from ECU Relay	Check ECU pin 14 for 12		12V
ISV has 12V from ECU	Check ECU pin 22 for 12V at ignition		12V
Ignition Coil has 12V from ECU	Check ECU pin 25 for 12V
ECU is good	Use other ECU you know is working		Engine start or exists spark at spark plugs
ECU is good	https://electrouniversity.com/how-to-test-ecu-with-multimeter/#how-to-know-if-an-ecu-is-bad
ECU Fuse if not broken	ECU Fuse.
ECU components are good	Open the ECU and look for fried components
Z1 wire is good	I merged this wire in the past, when I removed the old Gemini Alarm. Someone cut very close to the hole, and was very tough to solder here. Maybe is broken again.		12V and continuity
ECU and Full throttle switches		24-140-1
ISV pin 3 get to ECU	Check ISV pin 3 and ECU pin 14 for continuity		Continuity		Y
OTHERS
Fuel to the ramp					Y
Pressure at switch pressure				3.5 bar Ignition ON	Y
Alternator voltage regulator
Point distributor to corresponding cylinders
Cylinder compression	1) Throttle plates completely open 2) Ignition coil lead removed from distributor and connected to ground 3) Check compression following instructions	15.4	New: 8-12 bar (116-174 psi) Wear limit: 6 bar (87 psi)
Blue temp. sensor resistance	Check resistance when engine it's cold		2300 - 3000 ohms	2.45kOhm	Y
Water in the fuel.	Take a fuel sample		No water
Injectors spraying sufficient fuel or not	Use brake cleaner / contact cleaner to spray inside throtlle body. One person inside the car to turn on ignition key. 1) Dismount throttle body IC hose 2) Person inside the car, turn on ignition pressing gas pedal a quarter 3) Spray inside the throttle body If runs: - Injectors are not spraying sufficente quantity of fuel. If not: - Check spark again		Car engine run
Engine ground good	Grounds: - From throttlebody to ignition coil - Side of the crankshaft. With the water intake. Here are two. - Gearbox - To engine bonet - Under the battery How to: - Look for moho - If are flexible or too tight - Corroded					Replace every ground that looks or works badly.

 

As you see, I got a majority of good results. Some are marked with "R", because I will repeat them to be sure I am doing well.

The one that was not good is "Spark at ignition coil" checking, from here then I did the other checking: "Hall sender sends signal to make spark at ignition coil". I saw clearly a spark at ignition coil every time I ground, then I checked the spark plugs and I got spark on every of them, but the engine won't start. Almost did it because sounds LIKE an engine run, but don't. From that point, I never get spark at spark plugs anymore.

 

P.S: If you think the table I paste it here is too much, I can share the link to it. Excuse in advance if it is.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by KarlosG60

[KarlosG60 2]

Any thoughs?

I think I will try buying an used complete distributor and connect the hall sender and try again if I got spark.

Cold you tell me what cars of Group VAG can I look for this used Hall sender? Maybe I can search for 90s Seat Toledo or something?

Thank you guys.

[Popeye775 16]

Apologies if I skipped over this in reading your chart, but did you test the ignition coil itself?

Bentley says:
.5 to .8 ohms between 1 (-'ve) and 15 (+'ve) for Primary
2400 to 3500 Ohms between terminal 4 and 15 (secondary)

That is how you test to make sure you have a good ignition coil. I had a similar issue with mine a while ago, except I believe that I was getting some spark. Just to be safe, double check your timing. Check timing at the flywheel, at the crank to ensure your crank pulley and intermediate shaft are lining up, and check that the distributor is set properly and didn't somehow get out of timing. I had an issue where somehow my gear had jumped teeth on the crank pulley or the intermediate shaft - I am still unsure which one ended up jumping - and when I parked the car, it wouldn't turn back on and I had lost about 30psi of compression in each cylinder. That was the give away that my timing had jumped teeth. But similar symptoms. Car would not start, and would backfire very loud at around 3000rpm. I do agree you should source another distributor in order to see if that is your issue as well. Especially considering you are getting power to the distributor and hall sender. Double and triple check all of your grounds as well just to be sure that nothing is out of spec. 

 

Have you had any updates lately on this situation?

[KarlosG60 2]

19 hours ago, Popeye775 said:

Apologies if I skipped over this in reading your chart, but did you test the ignition coil itself?

Bentley says:
.5 to .8 ohms between 1 (-'ve) and 15 (+'ve) for Primary
2400 to 3500 Ohms between terminal 4 and 15 (secondary)

That is how you test to make sure you have a good ignition coil. I had a similar issue with mine a while ago, except I believe that I was getting some spark. Just to be safe, double check your timing. Check timing at the flywheel, at the crank to ensure your crank pulley and intermediate shaft are lining up, and check that the distributor is set properly and didn't somehow get out of timing. I had an issue where somehow my gear had jumped teeth on the crank pulley or the intermediate shaft - I am still unsure which one ended up jumping - and when I parked the car, it wouldn't turn back on and I had lost about 30psi of compression in each cylinder. That was the give away that my timing had jumped teeth. But similar symptoms. Car would not start, and would backfire very loud at around 3000rpm. I do agree you should source another distributor in order to see if that is your issue as well. Especially considering you are getting power to the distributor and hall sender. Double and triple check all of your grounds as well just to be sure that nothing is out of spec. 

 

Have you had any updates lately on this situation?

Thanks for writing. 

Yes I have updates. Sometimes the hall sender receices 10v and sometimes 5v or less. One of this times I got 10v, I try to run the engine and it works. So I started checking wires and so, and sometimes I move the group of wires,I clearly listen a few things in the car, like doors, injectors and hall. 

So the next step will be search for a broken wire.

[KarlosG60 2]

Also, the ignition coil it's new and it's working. 

 

[Popeye775 16]

On 4/22/2023 at 5:40 AM, KarlosG60 said:

Thanks for writing. 

Yes I have updates. Sometimes the hall sender receices 10v and sometimes 5v or less. One of this times I got 10v, I try to run the engine and it works. So I started checking wires and so, and sometimes I move the group of wires,I clearly listen a few things in the car, like doors, injectors and hall. 

So the next step will be search for a broken wire.

That is my thought as well. Try to track down a busted wire or connector in there somewhere. Try testing the wiring and while you are testing it, wiggle the wires around a little bit to see if you have a drop in voltage or not. If you do, then you know that you possibly have a short somewhere in the wiring

[KarlosG60 2]

A little update since April... My bad.

 

On 4/24/2023 at 6:50 PM, Popeye775 said:

That is my thought as well. Try to track down a busted wire or connector in there somewhere. Try testing the wiring and while you are testing it, wiggle the wires around a little bit to see if you have a drop in voltage or not. If you do, then you know that you possibly have a short somewhere in the wiring

I did this with distributor out of its hole and turning it by hand with contact on and voltimeter pinned in outer terminals of connector.

Moving/wiggling wires, voltage drops and go up between 5V - 10.20V.

Under 10V, no spark is audible or visible.

With 10.20V, spark is visible and audible (I listened sparks inside cylinders and the other spark plug was outside, where I saw it working).

I have a video, not in English, but maybe it's useful. I will upload it to YT.

So, at this point I don't know how to proceed. I'm thinking about talking with my workshop and let them the car to replace all wiring (I don't know if they do so or send it all wires to an specialist), not only faulty one. Because if there is broken wire, I think there will be more broken wires in the future.

Second option it's to invest hours and who knows when and how this will end.

Edited September 18, 2023 by KarlosG60

[Popeye775 16]

On 9/18/2023 at 5:57 AM, KarlosG60 said:

A little update since April... My bad.

 

I did this with distributor out of its hole and turning it by hand with contact on and voltimeter pinned in outer terminals of connector.

Moving/wiggling wires, voltage drops and go up between 5V - 10.20V.

Under 10V, no spark is audible or visible.

With 10.20V, spark is visible and audible (I listened sparks inside cylinders and the other spark plug was outside, where I saw it working).

I have a video, not in English, but maybe it's useful. I will upload it to YT.

So, at this point I don't know how to proceed. I'm thinking about talking with my workshop and let them the car to replace all wiring (I don't know if they do so or send it all wires to an specialist), not only faulty one. Because if there is broken wire, I think there will be more broken wires in the future.

Second option it's to invest hours and who knows when and how this will end.

Hi sir, so you checked the voltage at the harness connector for the hall sender? 

[KarlosG60 2]

11 minutes ago, Popeye775 said:

Hi sir, so you checked the voltage at the harness connector for the hall sender? 

Correct. Voltimeter in outer pins of hall sender connector. Key turn on.

Voltage went from ~5V to ~10.2V. Obtaining spark only when 10V was stable (distributor out of the engine and turning by hand)

Edited September 19, 2023 by KarlosG60

[Popeye775 16]

36 minutes ago, KarlosG60 said:

Correct. Voltimeter in outer pins of hall sender connector. Key turn on.

Voltage went from ~5V to ~10.2V. Obtaining spark only when 10V was stable (distributor out of the engine and turning by hand)

Ok. To me that sounds like there is a short in the wire somewhere. In the harness going to the hall sender, are there any butt connectors that you can see or feel? If there are, this could possibly be the cause of your short. I have had butt connectors fail on me before and after properly swapping them out, everything ran a whole lot better. 

[KarlosG60 2]

16 hours ago, Popeye775 said:

Ok. To me that sounds like there is a short in the wire somewhere. In the harness going to the hall sender, are there any butt connectors that you can see or feel? If there are, this could possibly be the cause of your short. I have had butt connectors fail on me before and after properly swapping them out, everything ran a whole lot better. 

Do you mean something like this:

 

I will check it, but I don't think so. This car is not in best shape conditions but previous owners they didn't modify too much. The only mod I found related to electric was a old Gemini alarm, that was installed not very well and I removed it and fixed Z1 wire (that one gives power to ECU I think).

[Popeye775 16]

Something like that or anything similar that could be causing a loose connection. Or any sort of broken wires along that circuit

[KarlosG60 2]

Update:

There are a few shorts and I am working on it to fix them all. One of them was green from the ignition coil. The black wire is also very tight/rigid/hard. And I'm going to put in new FLRY wire (not full wire, but that's the worst part).

 

But, in addition to this, I ran into something that I don't know if it's like that from the factory or it was also another crappy connection because of the Gemini alarm or sound system installed later.

I'm talking about 4 brown-white wires that ends to 94 ground.
Those wires are from: CO2 potentiometer, Hall Generator, Coolant Temperatur Sensor and Throttle Valve Potentiometer.

Here is how is this ground is in my car:

 

   

 

 

Is that ok? 

[Cressa 44]

15 hours ago, KarlosG60 said:

Update:

There are a few shorts and I am working on it to fix them all. One of them was green from the ignition coil. The black wire is also very tight/rigid/hard. And I'm going to put in new FLRY wire (not full wire, but that's the worst part).

 

But, in addition to this, I ran into something that I don't know if it's like that from the factory or it was also another crappy connection because of the Gemini alarm or sound system installed later.

I'm talking about 4 brown-white wires that ends to 94 ground.
Those wires are from: CO2 potentiometer, Hall Generator, Coolant Temperatur Sensor and Throttle Valve Potentiometer.

Here is how is this ground is in my car:

 

   

 

 

Is that ok? 

I'm going to say NO. If all of those negatives need a good grounding, they are all sharing that 1 small wire. 

What does a schematic wiring diagram say where they connect and ground to?

[KarlosG60 2]

On 10/15/2023 at 10:00 AM, Cressa said:

I'm going to say NO. If all of those negatives need a good grounding, they are all sharing that 1 small wire. 

What does a schematic wiring diagram say where they connect and ground to?

You can see the diagram at Bent. pages 264 and 265: Eletronic Engine Controls diagram.

The ground is numbered 94. You got the legend at page 263 and it says: "Ground connections" - 94: in Digifant wiring harness.

[Popeye775 16]

On 10/14/2023 at 9:46 AM, KarlosG60 said:

Update:

There are a few shorts and I am working on it to fix them all. One of them was green from the ignition coil. The black wire is also very tight/rigid/hard. And I'm going to put in new FLRY wire (not full wire, but that's the worst part).

 

But, in addition to this, I ran into something that I don't know if it's like that from the factory or it was also another crappy connection because of the Gemini alarm or sound system installed later.

I'm talking about 4 brown-white wires that ends to 94 ground.
Those wires are from: CO2 potentiometer, Hall Generator, Coolant Temperatur Sensor and Throttle Valve Potentiometer.

Here is how is this ground is in my car:

 

   

 

 

Is that ok? 

The way that this is grounded does not look factory to me. To double check if I am accurate or not, I would post to the VW Vortex as well because there are a lot of pretty active VW heads that are on that forum daily that could tell you in more detail if that is factory or not. But, I am 99% positive that is not factory. I will double check my Bentley today and see where all those grounds should be running to. I am almost positive a couple of those should be running to the valve cover as a grounding spot. My valve cover has grounds for the hall sender, the CO Pot, and the coolant temp sensor I believe that are attached to it. All of them are separate wires unlike how yours has been spliced into one. 

[Bauhaus 3]

Those brown/white wires are the sensor ground wires that end up or at least make connection at pin 6 on the G60 ecu, they may also connect to the head although I have not checked this myself, but they must make connection to pin 6.

I'm sure I have a connector like that on my Corrado so it could be factory ?

[KarlosG60 2]

5 minutes ago, Bauhaus said:

Those brown/white wires are the sensor ground wires that end up or at least make connection at pin 6 on the G60 ecu, they may also connect to the head although I have not checked this myself, but they must make connection to pin 6.

I'm sure I have a connector like that on my Corrado so it could be factory ?

I asked in VWVortex like Popeye775 said and the first answer said yes it is factory.

Edited October 18, 2023 by KarlosG60

[KarlosG60 2]

Well, this ugly factory connector needs to be remade. Today, checking connectivity between ECU Pin6 and connectors of Co2, Throttle and Hall, the connectivity is not good enough. Even in Co2 is inexistent. 

I made a cut on the cover in the middle of the wire, close to ECU, and connectivity from here to Pin 6 was good. So I will remade the ugly connector and will see.

😪

[KarlosG60 2]

I'm newbie soldering. I don't know how to do it better 😅

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by KarlosG60

[Cressa 44]

That looks fine. 👌  Does the job and is protected

[KarlosG60 2]

Keep working on wiring and connectors:

  

 

Supplier where I'm buying stuff to fix and repair wires don't have too much of bicolor wires and only in 1mm section. So I'm using pairs of color that are similar and equal or less than 1mm. Those bigger than 1mm usually are in one color (I think) and supplier in this case got a lot of colors. This is why you will see colors that don't fit with what colors are in the diagrams.

This week I will finish with the wires I listed to be fixed (there's a lot more to be fixed) and will see what happen.  

Edited October 30, 2023 by KarlosG60

[Popeye775 16]

Hell yea! Keep us updated. Can't wait to see if it works

[KarlosG60 2]

This is how I am working with wire fixing. I made a spreadsheet in Google. 

WIRES & CONNECTORS. FIXING AND REPAIR
Circuit component	Wire color	Section	ECU Pin	Bentley	Connectivity and resistance are ok	Empalme + cable nuevo completado	Resistance value	Status	Date	Notes
Ignition Coil	G	1.5			FALSE	TRUE		Y	31/10/2023
Ignition Coil	BK	1.5			FALSE	TRUE		Y	31/10/2023
CO2 sensor connector	BL/W	0.5			TRUE	TRUE		Y	31/10/2023
CO2 sensor connector	BL	0.5			TRUE	TRUE		Y	31/10/2023
CO2 sensor connector	BR/W	0.5			TRUE	TRUE		Y	31/10/2023
Throttle connector	R/BL	0.5			FALSE	FALSE
Throttle connector	BL/BK	0.5			FALSE	FALSE
Throttle connector	BR/W	0.5			FALSE	TRUE
Ground 94 to Co2	BR/W	0.5	6		FALSE	TRUE				In Digifant wiring harness
Ground 94 to Throttle	BR/W	0.5	6		FALSE	FALSE				In Digifant wiring harness
Ground 94 to Hall Sender	BR/W	0.5	6		FALSE	FALSE				In Digifant wiring harness
Ground 94 to Water Temp. Sensor	BR/W	0.5	6		FALSE	FALSE		WIP		In Digifant wiring harness
Hall Sensor connector	G/W	0.5	18		FALSE	TRUE		Y	31/10/2023
Hall Sensor connector	R/BK	0.5	8		FALSE	TRUE		Y	31/10/2023
Hall Sensor connector	BR/W	0.5	Ground 94		FALSE	TRUE		Y	31/10/2023	94 ground
Engine water temp. sensor	BR/G	0.5	10		FALSE	FALSE		WIP
Engine water temp. sensor	BR/W	0.5	Ground 94		FALSE	FALSE		WIP
Z1. Injectors	R/Y	1.5			FALSE	FALSE
Signal radiator Fan near ISV					FALSE	TRUE
ISV	W	0.5			FALSE	FALSE
ISV	BK/Y	0.5			FALSE	FALSE

[Popeye775 16]

Smart. This is probably one of the best ways to do it IMO