The Forced Induction VR6 thread

[VR6Joni 0]

you should really get some kind of cooling on there it makes quite a difference, i helped a friend fit aquamist to his V9 charger and it does not loose power now after long hot runs.

 

Charge cooling is coming immanently if the form of aquamist, before my ultimate goal of putting a short runner on and running charge air through an intercooler between charger and throttle body in front of rad.

 

How did you find the air to air intercooler James? Just seems good routing for use with rotrex charger.

 

I have not tried dumping to atmosphere as it scuppers my temporary plans to use MAF before charger, long term plan is to go to MAP sensor though. Also not sure on boost cos I've been wimping out until I get my custom process monitor sorted so I can log boost, AFR, EGT and Fuel pressure. I've not gone higher then 0.5bar on a cr@p boost gauge yet though.

 

I think I might try generating a MAF signal from a map sensor and see how that fairs.

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

I love the air to air,hassel free,lighter and cools far better than the water to air cooler i had but with your rotrex i would stay water to air, as the supercharger does not generate the heat a turbo does.

[VR6Joni 0]

By stay water to air do you mean aquamist or the chargecooler setups Kev etc. have on here?

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

as in chargecooler mate,it will work well with the rotrex.

[VR6Joni 0]

as in chargecooler mate,it will work well with the rotrex.

 

Ok it's just an air to air intercooler would keep pipework relatively short if I was to get a short runner, do you really recon there would be much advantage to the charge cooler, if so I could spent the extra on a PWR cooler and stick with the standard manifold?

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

the main differance is pressure drop,you will need to full more volume of air on a intercooler and pipework unlike the small amount the chargecooler will take .

 

Turbo's are easy to compensate for pressure drop,quick turn of bleed valve and its fixed,superchargers require smaller pullys to compensate,this is what happend with my old VF1 supercharger.

 

By using a short runner manifold like SP's one,the throttle body is on the passanger side....your rotrex is on the drivers side....meaning pipework of from the throttle to PWR chargecooler over the exhaust manifolds but very well insulated(either way over the exhaust is not the best idea!) then to the SC.

 

Or stock manifold and somehow sqeeze the PWR chargercooler between the throttle body and SC...it will be tight but you will have zero pressure drop and very good throttle response. :D

 

So imop.

 

Supercharger with chargecooler

Turbo with Intercooler.

[KADVR6 0]

Alex lizardracing had a pwr chargecooler in between he's rotrex going into a standard vr6 manifold so it can be done, i will try and find a pic of it.

 

also Pete from dubpower has the same set up.

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

found one! this set-up would be ideal for the rotrex :D

[Philmo 0]

found one! this set-up would be ideal for the rotrex :D

 

IIRC Lizard used a larger diameter PWR than that and in the same location.

[VR6Joni 0]

I had seen the PWR setup before and I liked it.

Is it possible to sneak a charge pipe around the front of the radiator as that would be a nice cool route to the TB on a short runner or would there not be much of my front end left?

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

you mean with a short runner manifold? there is no room to run a pipe with the alternator there etc....it could be done but the standard manifold set up is a better choise...dont think you will see any gains running SR,there will be more heat soak with the standard manifold over the engine,but use self adesive heat reflective and that should help.

[Philmo 0]

It is possible by taking it below the O/S inner wing flange, below radiator, behind the bumper, which is the route taken by many an intercooler installation.

[The_Dude 0]

i would think it is, but you'd be putting a 180 degree turn right after the charger to turn it back round, not ideal really.

i do like the look of that PWR inline, would it fit a V9 you think? and do we know what size that is? it looks way smaller than CrazyDave's.

[B5VWC 0]

This is my Shortrunner & Chargecooler setup

 

 

Yeah it looks good but i know it does the job as the Rotrex was supplied with a 80mm pulley and I was told this should see around 350-360hp

Always makes 18psi (430hp/345torq) and that was after an hour running on the rollers and dying pistons - not much boost loss there

Be interesting to see what I could get with a 70mm pulley :D

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Always makes 18psi (430hp/345torq) and that was after an hour running on the rollers and dying pistons - not much boost loss there

 

Nice numbers 8)

 

Great power to drag that torque flat round to 7K and the torque isn't so much as to wreck the gears, good work.

 

I saw your old and new engines when I was up there recently. Hope the new one works out.

[big ben 10]

good work :D

[VR6Joni 0]

i would think it is, but you'd be putting a 180 degree turn right after the charger to turn it back round, not ideal really.

i do like the look of that PWR inline, would it fit a V9 you think? and do we know what size that is? it looks way smaller than CrazyDave's.

 

The rotrex outlet does rotate at 60deg intervals so could possibly come out at a nice angle for an intercooler setup which is what made me think of it. I recon the price would be very similar between a PWR charge cooler and standard manifold compared to a short runner and an intercooler, but what would have the best cooling gains between the 2 and as James said earlier would a noticeable amount of charge lag be introduced with the intercooler setup???? (with a rotrex)

 

Answers on a postcard please.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Depends on the size on the intercooler, whether it's single or double pass and volume and length of the boost path.

 

When I had my V9-F charger, I lost 4 psi putting the boost through a G60 side mount intercooler, but it didn't feel 'laggy' due to the progressive nature of the boost, but you just have to run smaller pulleys to make up for the loss as said already.

 

Turbos feel laggy with big intercoolers because they produce compressed air faster than it can fill the intake / intercooler / pipework volume, so the smaller the better where lag is concerned. Chargecoolers are mostly dependant on radiator size and water volume for efficiency, whereas intercoolers rely on physical size for their's.

[The_Dude 0]

Depends on the size on the intercooler, whether it's single or double pass and volume and length of the boost path.

 

When I had my V9-F charger, I lost 4 psi putting the boost through a G60 side mount intercooler, but it didn't feel 'laggy' due to the progressive nature of the boost, but you just have to run smaller pulleys to make up for the loss as said already.

 

Turbos feel laggy with big intercoolers because they produce compressed air faster than it can fill the intake / intercooler / pipework volume, so the smaller the better where lag is concerned. Chargecoolers are mostly dependant on radiator size and water volume for efficiency, whereas intercoolers rely on physical size for their's.

 

don't suppose you've got a pic of that Kev? i'm just weighing up all the options before I commit.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Pic of what sir?

[The_Dude 0]

Your V9 with the G60 cooler please Mr Wire. :salute:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Sorry, no pics of that I'm afraid! I flogged the charger etc a week later and ran it norm asp :lol: I'd reached the end of my teather at that point with the Vortech. Spinning it to 12psi and getting 8 at the throttle was poor value and a waste of fuel in my book, and it was no quicker than 8psi non-intercooled :lol: Seriously, the G60 IC is not worth the effort or expense mate!

 

I know Schimmel's chargecooler has zero boost drop, as proven by Shaun when he ran his S/C, but it's a pricey setup now the pound is weak against the dollar.

Shaun demonstrated pretty much the max you can do with a V9F. Schimmel intake, Schimmel CC, 263 cams, V9F running 15psi and it made 340hp. And that's about your lot.

 

I got 292hp running 8psi non-intercooled, 280ish running 12psi intercooled (8 at the throttle) and finally 325hp at 12psi non-intrcooled. Then I did this and never looked back :clap:

 

[StormchargedVR6 0]

As kev has already said you won't get more then 340bhp out of a V9 without belt slip , or shred belts as i did. That was the last straw for me

 

Schimmel cooler is the nuts, its the best set up out there by far.

 

Before

2.8l 24v Climatronic system.pdfDSCF0011.JPG[/attachment:15ugtzpf]

and now :D :clap: :clap: :clap:

VRT 037.JPG[/attachment:15ugtzpf]

[junkie 0]

Your seeing that boost loss as the intercooler was too small and restrictive i suspect, its always good if you can to measure the boost at the compressor discharge and the throttle body, basically before and after the intercooler.

[The_Dude 0]

Sorry, no pics of that I'm afraid! I flogged the charger etc a week later and ran it norm asp :lol: I'd reached the end of my teather at that point with the Vortech. Spinning it to 12psi and getting 8 at the throttle was poor value and a waste of fuel in my book, and it was no quicker than 8psi non-intercooled :lol: Seriously, the G60 IC is not worth the effort or expense mate!

 

I know Schimmel's chargecooler has zero boost drop, as proven by Shaun when he ran his S/C, but it's a pricey setup now the pound is weak against the dollar.

Shaun demonstrated pretty much the max you can do with a V9F. Schimmel intake, Schimmel CC, 263 cams, V9F running 15psi and it made 340hp. And that's about your lot.

 

I got 292hp running 8psi non-intercooled, 280ish running 12psi intercooled (8 at the throttle) and finally 325hp at 12psi non-intrcooled. Then I did this and never looked back :clap:

 

 

Mmmm, love that engine bay. :luvlove:

 

That's some odd figures! OK, so a G60 is a no-go....also PWR have now become AVT which befuddled me a little when I tried a search :scratch: but they do seem good value and I'm not actually too much of a box-style fan (tho the Schimmel one does seem beefy!), they look a little inefficient to me. Its just a matter of working which one to shoehorn into the bay like that photo a few posts ago.

 

Once you have a taste of power you want more and if I had the funds I would be going turbo, but its just too much initial outlay and I didn't even get a cost of living pay rise this year so I am struggling to keep the bugger on the road atm! Tbh the V9 is sufficent for now, I do a lot of town driving in London so its good that the main lump of power comes in later, I think if I had a turbo I would be getting very testy in traffic. I just want to go a bit faster is all.

 

I also need to get off my butt and get this OBD2 under way, just need to find some wiring diagrams (or get someone to do it for me) for the loom.