engine bay tapping noise - its running now!!

[Stan 24v 0]

If you need a full rebuild, then for the money I would suggest a rebore to 3.0/1 or even the 24v route mate. Hopefully it wont come to that, but at least it gives you an excuse to make your car a little different :wink:

 

I almost cried when I found out mine was fooked, but about 30 seconds later I was smiling with Glee :lol:

 

Some good deals to be had with the strength of the pound too:

 

http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?category=2

 

http://www.autotech.com/prod_engine_piston.htm

 

http://www.racetep.com/jeimport.html#vw

[Roger Blassberg 0]

Fourseasons has a BRAND SPANKING NEW head complete for £550. Have it delivered free to the East Coast and then go and get it. What a bargain. It can't weigh much more than your baggage allowance.

 

Best wishes

 

RB

[fla 9]

Just thought I'd give a brief update on progress - firstly a huge thanks to Zak who kindly came over on a cold Sunday morning to help out. He knows his stuff - a great help to me.

 

Anyway, removed pretty much everything around the head, coilpack, downpipes, air filter, lower manifold, fpr, injectors, battery and the various clamps and brackets. Loosened teh upper chain tensioner, so the chain now has some slack. Removed the serpentine tensioner, and i'll be fitting my polished new tensioner afterwards.

Cracked most of the head bolts open and then promptly lost the spline tool! Which put a big damper on the works. Unfortunately there were two more we hadn't done so these will ahve to wait until next weekend when i can pick up another tool from GSF.

 

Just something to note - i used to get the petrol whiff despite changing the fuel pipes. BUT, looking at the injectors, it looks like they ahve been removed previosuoly and not refitted properly so the new ones will be fitted with new seals and a good old clean of the head. It might we worth having a look under there and checking the injector seals.

 

So now there are a few bits to clean and polish up (evenings) whilst hopefully i'll crack on with the head next saturday.

 

Zak was an absolute star, loosening the downpipe nuts with the wobble and extension, plus all the other things he helped with.

 

Anyway, as things are progressing, i would say that the main cost of doing teh chains and head is not the complex nature of teh problem, more the time it takes to dismantle and tehn subsequently reassemble everything. Pretty much EVERYTHING needs to come out, plus with aircon making the bay even tighter its a job that, if you onl have weekends and are working outside, that will take more than a few days. Again, so far its not too complex, but make sure you take pictures of wires, fittings, cams, orientation etc and put things in labelled bags. There are a load of bolts out, although some have just been put back in the block for safety.

 

BTW, do the cams have to be removed to take the head off, or will the slack in the chain allow it to be removed as a whole? And when sending it to be skimmed do you send it with things fitted or just the head? What is the best head gasket to use afterwards (part no if poss - plus anything else that should be changed)

 

Will post up some pics and report back soon.

 

Meanwhile, whats the best way to polish the alternator, with all those fins? Also, can the lower manifold be painted with hammerite?

[fla 9]

or even the 24v route mate. ...

I almost cried when I found out mine was fooked,

 

Stan, did think of that and yes i almost cried when i was first told about the chain. I thought of breaking the car, but RB persuaded me against it.

 

Anyway, certainly after this rebuild, i'll know that the main mechanicals of the car will be well and truly sorted so a much lower likelihood of experiencing anything serios for the next few years.

 

24V did appeal, but it would have been far beyond my budget, what with business as it is right now, and somewhat beyond my level of expertise. Maybe i should have just bought yours and retro fitted aircon into it. Either that or wait for yours or Jay Renshaws car to come for sale again...

 

BTW, thanks for the rear surround. which arrived last Saturday. Its still in the pack, so i've not opened it yet.

[Stan 24v 0]

No probs matey, hope yours all works out.

[antonio_b12 0]

no the cams do not have to be removed to get the head off...

[Walesy 0]

Zak is a nice guy, but one bit of advice - carefull with any buckets of oil lying around near him, he has a history of making a mess :lol: :wink:

 

Great to see forum members taking time out from their weekends to help others :thumbleft:

[fla 9]

no the cams do not have to be removed to get the head off...

 

OK thats good to know. So if i loosen the upper tensioner and remove the head bolts it should tilt out from under the duplex chain? Which head gasket should i get in replacement?

 

Zak is a nice guy, but one bit of advice - carefull with any buckets of oil lying around near him, he has a history of making a mess :lol: :wink:

 

Great to see forum members taking time out from their weekends to help others :thumbleft:

 

He was certainly OK this weekend, everything was nice and neat :D

[Roger Blassberg 0]

Personally speaking, I would take the trouble to remove the camshaft sprockets; this will make the removal of the head so much easier as it will then be a straight lift. And think about the rebuild; do you want to try to get the top chain over the sprockets in the right orientation whilst supporting and tilting the head and risking damage to the head gasket in the process. So much easier to bed down the head and then start thinking about setting the camshaft timing. Maybe you would get it right , but probably you would get it wrong (not a comment on your expertise, but a restatement of Murphy's/Sod's Law.)

 

Best wishes

 

RB

[zak 0]

Hassans a top bloke nice to meet you and the family. I'll pop down again after i get back in the new year.

 

Walsey, whoops, i can confirm there was no oil on Hassans drive when i left :lol:

[jamminvr6storm 0]

The camshaft sprockets can be a biatch to remove..... they usually need putting in a vice and be very careful of the small sensor on the sprocket as it easy to break them too.

 

Good Luck :)

[tonedef 9]

I split a Snap On impact socket trying to get one of the cam sprocket bolts out so I've given up and ordered new sprockets and bolts for the 258s. No idea what the torque setting is but they are seriously tight.

 

I found the easiest way to get the head off was to remove the cams first, takes a bit of doing but I managed to get just enough slack in the chain to get them out, bit trickier rebuilding when chain and guides are all new though.

[fla 9]

I'm planning to remove the cam covers and leave the sprockets attached. Then i hope with the slack in the chain these can be slid out from underneath one at a time. As the head has to come off, its no great shakes that teh timing is completely out, this will then need to be reset when it all goes together again.

 

In terms of taking the engine out, with an auto box, would the lot come out together and then teh box separated out of the car or can the box be removed with the engine in situ?

[pete_griff 0]

Fla, sorry to hear the bad news mate.

 

I'va attached the VR6 head bolt tightening sequence for you.

 

As suggested I would remove the head to at least see if the block is salvageable. It would be a shame to lose a young engine. Granted it's bloody freezing at the moment but at least you'll know for sure.

 

It's easy removing the head. Drain the coolant off etc etc.

 

don't want to hi-jack this thread, but cheers for the above guide kev

 

i (hopefully) wouldn't have had problems anyway - but you really can't go wrong with a guide like that! - Ta v much :thumb right:

 

(will let you know how i get on with changing my own head gasket shortly)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Cheers, hope it helps :lol:

 

I forgot to mention that when timing the engine up, you need to make sure the intermediate shaft sprocket is pointing north. It has a marker on it and you can just about see it with a torch when the timing cover plate is removed. One of those small telescopic dental mirrors would be your friend here ;-)

[Roger Blassberg 0]

OOOOOh! Why's that? I thought it just drove the oil pump, so its orientation was immaterial.

 

By the way, despite the fact that this isn't my thread, "Happy Christmas" to all readers.

 

Best wishes

 

RB

[pete_griff 0]

yeah - ditto what RB said - i was under the impression it's orientation didn't matter, as long as the top and bottom are timed up correctly - at least thats what my "knowledgable" friend said :?...

 

can't see any sensors etc or anciliaries in the area other than the oil pump which would be affected???

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I totally agree!! It's just turning a pump and makes no sense at all, but, VW specify it MUST be aligned correctly for a reason and it's been recently discovered it affects the sequential injection timing. Don't ask me how or why :lol:

[pete_griff 0]

fair enough - as far as i know my friend (who is a mechanic by trade) and has changed many vr head gaskets etc has never bothered making sure that's timed up as long as the top and bottom are ok and he's never had a problem reported with any of the cars that he has done...

 

really can't see how it would affect the injection timing???

 

maybe vw kicking up a fuss so they can get more trade with themselves, or maybe people have been putting too many vr's back together and getting the timing wrong - but why would they do that for what is really no reason - weird :?

 

well, when i put my engine back together, it won't have moved at all and i have my nice tippex marks and some 3mm plates to make sure everything is ok - still that's odd nonetheless

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I know. Confuses me too but it's Stealth Racing that have been telling me over the years it all needs to be timed up as per VW's instruction. Have a chat with Vince, he'll explain it far better than I can!!

 

Every time I do a head, I make sure the intermediate sprocket is pointing upwards and never get any issues either.

 

I think you're right, it's a load of old VW horseschitt, but adhering to it seems to have worked for me :lol:

[Toad 0]

You could probably end up with the timing 1/2 tooth out if you didn't line it up properly. I wonder if it might just be so that you can quickly see that everything is in the correct position, i.e the cams are not 180 degrees out without looking at the top of the engine??

[Kevin Bacon 5]

It's all a bit weird. I'd love to get a VR6 on the bench and [strike:n8yt1xfu]shag it senseless[/strike:n8yt1xfu]thoroughly figure the damn thing out where timing is concerned.

 

I've had the cams 1 tooth out before (advanced) and the bottom end torque was monumental!! But from 4000rpm it was gutless. I reckon those vernier pulleys you can get for the VR6 would be a damn good purchase, especially where head spacers are used, which reminds me...... when a spacer is used, those old clever Krauts HGPturbo.de add another link to the chain!!

 

They also use uprated conrod bearings. No one else does. I wonder why? I'm in favour of believing what the krauts do is correct. They designed the damn thing in the first place......

[fla 9]

Some new developments. I've added some pics to show the damage. Could only have found this out after taking everything apart. Anyway the long and the short of it are that a piece from bearing cap 6 broke off and bits of it wedged themselves under two other bearing caps. One piece has caused severe scoring of the camshaft, and the underside of the bearing (in the head). This has blocked the oil feed hole and caused a burr which sticks out over the tappet.

 

The thermo housing has been removed and the engine side plate has also been taken off (which was a mission in itself). The cams have been removed and the upper duplex chain generally looks ok. I need to take the engine and box out to inspect the lower chain but looking through the side opening, it generally looks fine. But the crank pulley does not turn the cams so i dont know what to expect.

 

As this is such a low mileage engine i'm thinking of informing VW as they should take some responsibility for the metal fatigue. Do you think its worth it though?

 

One good thing, i've polished and painted various bits whilst they're off the engine. A shame i dont have any 'unpolished' pics of the engine bay as a comparison.

 

The damage to the head-side of the bearing is not easy to see, plus it was getting dark so the picture is not great. I've taken it from the rear of the engine bay, so the cams are the other way around. Dont know how to put arrows etc in the images.

 

Is the head salvageable in terms of the cam bearing?

 

The next problem is actually removing the head, it looks like a combination of heat and maybe some gasket adhesive have held it on so tight i cant even slightly move it with all the bolts out. I'm using an old screwdriver and tapping it lightly under the gasket with a hammer, but its not moving. Dont really want to hit it harder.

 

Anyone who has replaced their cams with 268s etc, do you still have your old cams spare? If so, please let me know. Thanks

[Toad 0]

Considering the damage to the cam bearing, the only encouraging thing I can say is that aluminium scrap is still worth a few quid... :(

 

Damage to the cam bearings in the head can be line bored out on some heads, but not this badly, or on the vr I believe. A few stiff tapps with a hammer to the head should start to move it, I'd be wary of using a screwdriver as a wedge as you could damage the block slightly.

 

Sorry dude...

[fla 9]

Yeah, i'l try a block of wood as a drift and give the head a few taps, see if it comes off. I need to take the front off at some stage to get the engine out so that will give good access.

On a head refurb, what is normally carried out?