The Forced Induction 20V Thread

[junkie 0]

Im undecided on the solid lifter head at the moment Kev, i know its pushing it but it wont be used up there constantly like it would be on a track but i also know its on the limit too. Will going solid lifter mean the head drivetrain parts will wear quicker too?

 

It only starts getting fun once up in the 5k+ rev range :D

 

Well i thought going O2J would be a sufficiently stronger box been an upgraded O2A basically, i would go 6 speed but the O2M requires too much modification to fit and the Quaiffes etc are too much money for now as all the funds are going in the engine build then i also dont want a dog box as i have heard its a hinderance more than anything on daily driving duties or anything other than ragging it to within an inch of its life so i think the synchros are a must still???

[Dub20vt 0]

Im undecided on the solid lifter head at the moment Kev, i know its pushing it but it wont be used up there constantly like it would be on a track but i also know its on the limit too. Will going solid lifter mean the head drivetrain parts will wear quicker too?

 

It only starts getting fun once up in the 5k+ rev range :D

 

Well i thought going O2J would be a sufficiently stronger box been an upgraded O2A basically, i would go 6 speed but the O2M requires too much modification to fit and the Quaiffes etc are too much money for now as all the funds are going in the engine build then i also dont want a dog box as i have heard its a hinderance more than anything on daily driving duties or anything other than ragging it to within an inch of its life so i think the synchros are a must still???

 

i'd have a chat with bill brockbank with regards to rev limits without solid lifters... i believe he's pushing the hydraulics very hard going to 7800rpm... personally i would say anything beyond 8k will demand solids to be on the safe side.... i wouldn't fancy the bill for 20vs, 4 pistons and a new head :shock:

 

make sure you do the valves aswell... as i'm sure you'll be aware they're the 20vs second weakest link after the rods.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I would seriously reconsider going to 8.5K Simon, although it's a nice challenge to over come :D Turbos are all about torque and gearing. 8500 rpm is for the naturally aspirated boys :D

 

VTEC, VANOS etc, they're designed to spin round to 8K and beyond. The 1.8T is not!

 

A 16V would be better for this as it has less valvetrain weight and stronger valves and it's an engine that's already been shown to do 8,500rpm in solid lifter guise. Think you can also get hollow cams and titanium springs, aswell as keepers and caps for valver engines. It all helps. Valvetrain weight and valve bounce are significant problems past 7500rpm.

 

The bottom end would need to be lightened and balanced aswell. Over square engines are better at revs aswell....hence why the Vauxhall XE red top is such a popular engine for racing.

 

Or go 24V :D It has no tappets :wink:

[Dub20vt 0]

I would seriously reconsider going to 8.5K Simon, although it's a nice challenge to over come :D Turbos are all about torque and gearing. 8500 rpm is for the naturally aspirated boys :D

 

VTEC, VANOS etc, they're designed to spin round to 8K and beyond. The 1.8T is not!

 

A 16V would be better for this as it has less valvetrain weight and stronger valves and it's an engine that's already been shown to do 8,500rpm in solid lifter guise. Think you can also get hollow cams and titanium springs, aswell as keepers and caps for valver engines. It all helps. Valvetrain weight and valve bounce are significant problems past 7500rpm.

 

The bottom end would need to be lightened and balanced aswell. Over square engines are better at revs aswell....hence why the Vauxhall XE red top is such a popular engine for racing.

 

Or go 24V :D It has no tappets :wink:

 

20vs have been shown to rev well too though..... take a look at Graham Vanstones old 20v... admittedly NA but still the same head etc. that revved to 9k ish iirc.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Anything can be made to do anything with the right parts and investment.

 

For how long can it sustain 9000rpm though? That must have had some serious work done to it, most of it undisclosed I'll bet aswell.

[junkie 0]

Interesting stuff, all i know is it will have a significant investment going into it and the idea of going to 8.5k was to give a wider power band as unlike the 12v/24v using the GT3076R it will have lag in it on the 20v.

 

As with all things they are only plans and ideas i have so lets see how they come out.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah, sorry chap, wasn't trying too poo poo your plans :D I just can't really see the need for 8.5K rpm in a road car, because unless you have very short gearing, I don't think you will that 8.5K action very often on crowded UK roads.

 

On a track, that extra power band will come into it's own though.

 

What AR hotside are you thinking of for the 3076? If you want to spin round to 8.5K and still be making boost up there, you'll need to be looking at the 1.06 AR, in which case you will have lag of biblical proportions :D

 

If you take the 1.8T out to 2 litres, the extra capacity will help reduce spool time and also look at divided manifolds with very short runners.....also helps to reduce spool up time....

[junkie 0]

You have not by anymeans poo'd on the plans mate, it would take much more than that to put me off.

 

It will have shortish gears not entirely sure on what though but using your theory with the final drive, i was thinking of going 0.82 but not knowing too much on turbos i cant answer how that will drive, i think its bigish but not too big.

I see mine boosting similar to yours with mine having the smaller turbo on a smaller engine but a like for like comparison they will be similar, not that its my aim to build it driving similar to yours but thats how i imagine it will turn out in the end.

 

Im not taking it out to 2 litres but 1900 and have not decided on the manifold yet but probably a tubular design.

 

I know for sure i will be taking it up to high revs, we have good track style roads around Rotherham :lol: or at least thats how they get used by me :clap:

[dirtytorque 0]

You have not by anymeans poo'd on the plans mate, it would take much more than that to put me off.

 

It will have shortish gears not entirely sure on what though but using your theory with the final drive, i was thinking of going 0.82 but not knowing too much on turbos i cant answer how that will drive, i think its bigish but not too big.

I see mine boosting similar to yours with mine having the smaller turbo on a smaller engine but a like for like comparison they will be similar, not that its my aim to build it driving similar to yours but thats how i imagine it will turn out in the end.

 

Im not taking it out to 2 litres but 1900 and have not decided on the manifold yet but probably a tubular design.

 

I know for sure i will be taking it up to high revs, we have good track style roads around Rotherham :lol: or at least thats how they get used by me :clap:

 

 

It would make an interesting 1/4 mile machine though at 8.5k but a stiff engineering challenge.

Have you got an idea in your head what you want from the car?

Is it going to be a daily aswell?

These are not loaded questions,just interested.

:salute:

[junkie 0]

Thats kind of the plan to be honest Rob, im not getting it built to specifically do 1/4's but i would and will do them occasionally, also it will be getting built by a guy who does 1/4's all day long :norty: very quickly :notworthy:

 

Its not a daily by any means especially with todays rapidly rising fuel costs but just a weekend toy every now and then.

[dirtytorque 0]

Thats kind of the plan to be honest Rob, im not getting it built to specifically do 1/4's but i would and will do them occasionally, also it will be getting built by a guy who does 1/4's all day long :norty: very quickly :notworthy:

 

Its not a daily by any means especially with todays rapidly rising fuel costs but just a weekend toy every now and then.

 

8)

[CTWG60 0]

You have not by anymeans poo'd on the plans mate, it would take much more than that to put me off.

 

It will have shortish gears not entirely sure on what though but using your theory with the final drive, i was thinking of going 0.82 but not knowing too much on turbos i cant answer how that will drive, i think its bigish but not too big.

 

 

Have you seen this web page? Came across it whilst surfing obviously but it lists a box from a mk5 golf and other late vw and audis and it's basically a short ratio 6 speed O2A box, they call it the 02S box, haven't figured out how the speedo drive could be adapted but looks perfect for your new build.

 

http://www.turbo-conversion.com/16v-Tur ... 5a77c1ae72

 

Will you make use of the variable cam timing of the 1.8T? Could be useful with that rev range! I believe Emerald can be made to control it IIRC.

[dirtytorque 0]

You have not by anymeans poo'd on the plans mate, it would take much more than that to put me off.

 

It will have shortish gears not entirely sure on what though but using your theory with the final drive, i was thinking of going 0.82 but not knowing too much on turbos i cant answer how that will drive, i think its bigish but not too big.

 

 

Have you seen this web page? Came across it whilst surfing obviously but it lists a box from a mk5 golf and other late vw and audis and it's basically a short ratio 6 speed O2A box have figured out the speedo drive but looks perfect for your new build.

 

http://www.turbo-conversion.com/16v-Tur ... 5a77c1ae72

 

Will you make use of the variable cam timing of the 1.8T? Could be useful with that rev range! I believe Emerald can be made to control it IIRC.

 

Some variable cam timing systems are just a switch being activated at a certain rpm to change the profile of the cam.

....or such is my understanding.

If that was the case I think most aftermarkets could be made to deal with that..

[CTWG60 0]

Some variable cam timing systems are just a switch being activated at a certain rpm to change the profile of the cam.

....or such is my understanding.

If that was the case I think most aftermarkets could be made to deal with that..

 

I know not! :shrug:

[junkie 0]

Which 1 are you on about the 1 right at the bottom of somebody's site from here page? If so i think there was a thread a couple of years ago that a guy wanted to use 1 but never did for whatever reason i dont know, he bought 1 and everything.

 

Not planning to use any DBW, good old throttle cable for me with a suitably specced set of cams for the rev range.

[CTWG60 0]

Which 1 are you on about the 1 right at the bottom of somebody's site from here page? If so i think there was a thread a couple of years ago that a guy wanted to use 1 but never did for whatever reason i dont know, he bought 1 and everything.

 

Not planning to use any DBW, good old throttle cable for me with a suitably specced set of cams for the rev range.

 

Yeah the 02S's. There's a good range of ratios there to choose from if your running 17" wheels they should be spot on for you. Easy to install as they are basically a O2A/J casing with an extended end plate for a 6th gear. I would of thought they will be popular in a year or so when people stop asking for £600 for them but an option for you to consider. A lot of mk1 boy's talk about them over on dubforce or clubgti iirc as they are easy to fit in the smaller car and give you six gears to spool with. :D

[junkie 0]

Cool sounds good, so what works out best then doing that box swap or using the quaiffe 6 speed kit, not the full box of goodies but they do like an extended something or another to add a 6th to the box in the car.

[CTWG60 0]

Cool sounds good, so what works out best then doing that box swap or using the quaiffe 6 speed kit, not the full box of goodies but they do like an extended something or another to add a 6th to the box in the car.

 

Haven't really looked into it that much but for the money I'd say get the 02S and shifter and give it to someone to put in. The quaiffe kits are ridiculously expensive like 3k expensive.

[junkie 0]

Just had a look on their site and i cant find it now but it was a kit to convert your 5 speed box into a 6 speed, not actually buying the 3k kit.

[CTWG60 0]

Just had a look on their site and i cant find it now but it was a kit to convert your 5 speed box into a 6 speed, not actually buying the 3k kit.

 

Yeah it's £2600 odd plus the VAT.

 

http://www.quaife.co.uk/VW_2

 

All the other stuff listed is different final drives to suit your needs for £500 odd each.

 

Oh yeah and another 100+vat for the bolt kit. :?

 

There is this one and it's only 2k+vat. :|

 

http://www.quaife.co.uk/VW-02A-6-speed- ... fe-gearkit

[junkie 0]

I know there are the 6 speed gearbox kits but what im saying is they used to do a conversion kit to convert your 5 speeder to a six speeder.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

The Quaife is a nice looking gearset in the flesh, but it's known to break in turbo applications because of the torque. You only want to do a box once, so you need to pick one that's up to the job. You will need driveshafts aswell :D

 

Turbo torque will move along the chain, breaking every weak link until they're all upgraded! It shows no mercy on your drivetrain :D

 

SQS are probably the strongest gearsets at the moment, and Gemini (if you can find one!).

 

I don't think the O2S is strong enough personally. The 02A and 02J certainly aren't (for the power you're aiming for) and the O2S is the same box with an extra cog on the end. All the high torque vehicles get the 02M IIRC.

 

Unfortunately you can't use the 1.8T's variable valve timing for performance gains. In the OE application, it's purely for emissions control at low rpm.

It is sadly nothing like a dual lobe cam system like Honda's VTEC or BMW's very complex VANOS system :D

 

3076 - You're still in a relatively undecided stage at the moment, so I'd personally go with the 0.82 turbine housing. 1.06 will be too laggy on a 1.9 4 pot, you can always change it further down the line. Turbine housings aren't expensive and easily swappable DIY.

 

The 3076 can do 30psi easily, and it has MASSIVELY more flow than any VAG turbo, so the pull on that is going to be a shock to the system :lol:

[junkie 0]

Its all definately undecided at the minute on everything :lol: except big power.

 

Never intended to use the VVT and 30psi sounds bloody good to me, read people going from 5psi to 30psi in the space of 500rpm or less :lol: and spinning at the top of each gear :lol:

 

Having never driven a VAG turbo i cant comment, good job i like shocks to the system then....only definate and the main reason to build the engine like that is to scare :fondle: Toad and Rob some more.

[Dub20vt 0]

The Quaife is a nice looking gearset in the flesh, but it's known to break in turbo applications because of the torque. You only want to do a box once, so you need to pick one that's up to the job. You will need driveshafts aswell :D

 

Turbo torque will move along the chain, breaking every weak link until they're all upgraded! It shows no mercy on your drivetrain :D

 

SQS are probably the strongest gearsets at the moment, and Gemini (if you can find one!).

 

I've run a Quaife syncro 6speed kit with turbo power since 2001 with no problems, engine dyno plots showed 317bhp + 357lb/ft

no problems as yet (crosses fingers). and you also get the lovely straight cut noise in every gear too :D (unlike a lot of the Gemini kits that are still available, mostly 3-6 kits).

[junkie 0]

How is it with the syncro gears then as i thought that was the weak point in gearboxes alot of the time, i like the idea of the 6 speeders but not a dog box as it does get used on the road and they can be a hinderance more than anything in normal driving.