Dodgy steering - A cure

[dr_mat 0]

Could also be worn power fluid seals..

Anyway, had my ball joints and top mounts done now, plus a little sprint through the countryside with Vince driving.

He gave the car a clean bill of health... Of course... (It's been pretty near faultless all week..)

The steering is improved with the new parts, no question. There's less bump-steer, though the car still tramlines and pulls from one side to the other on and off under heavy acceleration on uneven surfaces (but then, 190lbft and front wheel drive)..

The steering feels quite heavy at the moment, as it should be I suspect, but there is still the slightest hint of play when moving at speed, so I suspect I will need a new rack for the same reason as yourself. I think we have a combination of several problems.

1) basically worn components all over the place making everything worse - BJs, track rod ends, top mounts etc etc

2) worn rack showing a tiny bit of play (but this isn't going to be the reason for the MAJOR handling sloppiness, IMHO)

3) blown power fluid seals, or leaky seals (I think THIS is the cause for the intermittent nature of the problem!)

[Linus Van Pelt 0]

This could be fun, had my P&J in for it's service today. Due to yet another oil leak :roll: (some gasket or other this time), they didn't have time to give my steering the once over - however, it's going back in next Sat to sort some bits out and they should be able to give it a thorough going over then.

 

I'll report in if I get any new suggestions, but as dr_mat says, it's more than likely to be a combination of several things, and I don't think any solution will fit all, but at least it'll give us all a check list of places to start looking.

 

DtM.

[dr_mat 0]

*I* think that the play in the column will disappear when the rack's pinion is tight. *I* think that the rack-to-column link should be under load at all times to keep any slight play in the UJs out of the equation.

But from a personal basis I think the worst of the steering vagueness and wooliness is caused by power assist problems, be it bad seals, bad valves or what I don't know.

Vince comments that he had a bad rack in a golf once that was heavier to turn ONE way. When the rack was replaced it was heavy BOTH ways, the "light" steering was wrong. Perhaps we're suffering similar issues?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Matt, no torque steer from mine at all and only the very faintest hint of tramlining in deep lorry ruts, so I'm damned close to getting mine perfect. Drove it today and by god was the car awesome. Just couldn't believe the handling, acceleration, feedback, the lot. I've had my subframe seam welded, so I know that's tight as a gnat's chuff, but I will be thoroughly inspecting *all* the subframe and rack bolts etc for tightness.

 

The rack is going to improve matters still further and the poly rack and cross member bushes, plus new OE wishbone bushes is going to give me a mega tight chassis for sure. Then it might drive like Tom's awesome VR :wink:

 

I've studied the EKTA diagram of the column and it *is* rebuildable with new bearings, contrary to what VW say.

 

One question tho, how do I know the new rack is centred? Say we fit it and fit it's been moved off centre? Will that screw things up?

 

K

[dr_mat 0]

Different tyres - you've got your Bridgestones back? The GY F1s have a rep for a bit of tramlining..

You had the subframe seam welded? Which bits?

Which are the cross member bushes?

[dr_mat 0]

Dunno about the rack position. I doubt you can get it wrong enough for it to be a problem. I suspect that the moment you try to attach the UJs you'll find out exactly what position the racks needs to be bolted into...

I can see that it's probably pretty easy to replace the bottom bearing on the column, but I don't think that's important. The top bearing (at the wheel) is harder to get to, but I'm sure it's possible to renovate, just *hard*..

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah I've got the same Bridgestone Potenza RE720s all round, can't commend them enough. They're the best tyre I've *ever* tried, bar none. But enough of my endorsing already :lol:

 

The subframe is basically two pressed steel plates spot welded together. Vince mig welded all the seams together between the spot welds. It's what he used to do to the Vento cup racer cars and it makes the steering feel a lot more solid and weighty.

 

Front cross member is the big bar that spans the two bumper mount points and is what the front engine mount bolts to. Each end has 2 rubber bushes which are soft and squidgy. Replacing these with 60 shure powerflex urethane bushes reduces engine movement still further and again, gives a tighter feel to the chassis.

 

The powerflex rack bush (80 shure) will remove the slight squidgy feel off centre and keep the rack a lot more planted during hard cornering. Extra vibration? Zero.

 

K

[Joe M 0]

The rack is going to improve matters still further and the poly rack and cross member bushes, plus new OE wishbone bushes is going to give me a mega tight chassis for sure. Then it might drive like Tom's awesome VR :wink:

 

Are you getting rid of the vibratech wishbone bushes?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah, not overly convinced by them to be honest, hence they're being replaced with new VW ones on Thursday.

 

They were awesome to begin with but when I jacked the car up recently, I could see rusty metal on the centre spindle, so I think I've worn them out already!!

 

K

[dr_mat 0]

I can confirm that ....... my steering problems are more clearly discernable now the ball joints aren't wobbling about all over the place.. :lol:

There's a tiny bit of play in the system, which is only really noticeable when you're moving at slow speed, but which can really become a problem on bumpy surfaces. It just detracts from the steering feel, more than being actually dangerous.

The variable steering weight is still there, though slightly less extreme at the moment (probably the weather). I suspect this is the rack power assist valves being flaky myself.

 

Oh and just in case that lot wasn't enough I got three ABS error codes: BOTH rear wheel sensors (physical fault) plus a rear right valve in the pump itself.. Smeg!!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

That's the trouble.....fixing one thing and making it tight highlights a weakness elsewhere!

 

Bad news about the pump outlet..... I bet the pump is a sealed, non-servicable unit!

[dr_mat 0]

ABS pump:

Indeed it is. Very sealed, very non-serviceable.

I will be going the 2nd hand route, if it turns out to be necessary.

 

Funny thing about the rear sensors tho. I wonder if my new wheel bearings are causing problems, or if maybe the hubs are a bit knackered. I can't see why both would suddenly start reporting problems tho.

 

As for the steering, I think I was already aware there was some slight play in the system when under load, but tightening up the strut positioning (with bjs and tms) just shows it up a little more clearly.

[Henny 0]

humm, Having both rears stop working around the same time due to mechanical faults is DAMNED unlikely... :? Did you have new disks fitted at the back as well as the bearings? If you did, I'll put money on it that the muppets who fitted them didn't put the cages off the old disk onto the new ones which is why you have BOTH rear sensors not working with a mechanical fault... :? :roll:

 

You may well find that when this is sorted the valve fault "magically" disappears and that it's only throwing that code up due to both rear rotors being missing... ;)

[dr_mat 0]

Both rear rotors are there, no probs. The wheel bearings were changed ages ago, as were the disks. I just wonder if the bearings are getting loose, and causing the rotor (attached to the hub) to wobble around a bit. But then, back when they were really bad I could tell really easily through the steering before I got any ABS problems.

The ABS light comes on once in a while, but certainly not all the time. I suspect these rear physical problems *are* related to the valve warning in the pump though.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Mine has a dead front ABS sensor and the light is on permanently, so I would image yours would do the same if the sensors were definitely down?

[dr_mat 0]

There's nowt wrong with the sensors, I suspect. Odd thing was that the faults weren't marked as "intermittant" but the light wasn't on when we scanned them...

There's some sort of algorithm that says "if fault doesn't return in N reboots, store it and turn the light off".

[MoonlightVR 0]

Hope your ABS pump isn't faulty Matt. New they are something horrendous like a grand + vat! I have a spare ABS pump that I may be persuaded to sell if you need it :)

[dr_mat 0]

I just might... LOL! :)

No way I'll be buying a new one...

[Joe M 0]

Back to the steering, how bad is the actual problem? Does it affect the handling of the car or is it more of an annoying click from the steering at slow speeds and bumpy surfaces?

[dr_mat 0]

It's ok for normal driving, it's not like the car actually wanders or anything, but it certainly detracts from the steering feel in a noticeable way. But the biggest problem is when you get up to higher speeds, particularly on rough roads, with no steering feel, and with *some* play then it starts to get hairy.. Steering becomes something you do by committee. The placing of the car is just imprecise and you can't trust it as much as normal...

Dunno how badly worn Kev's is, but that pretty much sums mine up right now. Feels good-to-great at low speeds on smooth roads, but feels bad-to-scary at high speeds on rough roads....

[Linus Van Pelt 0]

dr_mat, that sounds like a perfect description to me 8)

 

Incidentally, I know they didn't get around to looking at my steering on Saturday (when I had my service), but they've certainly done *something* that seems to have helped (quite a bit better in fact)... :scratch:

 

I know they said the oil leak was 'difficult to get too', so maybe they had to remove and replace stuff which might itself have just been loose (gasket in or around the oil cooler I think - although I've no idea where in the engine bay that would be :oops: ).

 

Either that, or it was the leaking oil itself finding it's way into somewhere it should'nt be... presumably a part 'slipping' would be comparable to it being 'worn/loose'... :?:

 

The plot thickens... :lol:

 

DtM.

[dr_mat 0]

The plot thins, is more likely!

I have to say the new ball joints have made a difference - I get much less clonking on big potholes/ruts now.

But I think the only way to fix it, once and for all, is to whack a new steering rack on the beast.

Which isn't cheap...

One thing - talking about oil leaks - my rear engine mount (gearbox side) blew about a year back and deposited a shed load of sticky black oil on the rack and various other components around that part of the car. (Subframe/diff/inner CVs etc etc.) I wonder if this might have penetrated and rotted the rack's PS seals..

[Joe M 0]

How old are your rear top mounts? I changed mine the other day and have noticed a huge improvement in the steering at speed, turn ins sharper, it feels more precise and the car is a lot more stable.

[Linus Van Pelt 0]

Well, I went in for Part Two at the w/e and by jove they've actually fixed it! 8)

 

Having already mentioned both the general steering and handling concerns (including a good tip about rear torsion beam bushes from 16VG60), they couldn't actually find anything specifically wrong (I was in following a service to have a new engine mount and 4 wheel alignement done).

 

They've gone over all the steering/handling parts, checked tightened, reset and lubricated everything in sight. Whilst I don't pretend to know precisely what they've done, whatever it was, it worked (and better still it didn't require any new parts!)

 

My steering wheel is back to the usual position and the car is on rails around corners again :twisted: .

 

Anyone in the Berkshire area looking for another recommendation, take a look at RA Engineering (Bosch Service Centre) http://www.raengineering.co.uk can't praise them highly enough ;)

 

DtM.

[monVR6 0]

Morning all - just wondered if there have been any developments or further thoughts and suggestions on this problem?? DTM - are things still OK after your visit to RAengineering??