VR6 ticking/tapping

[P3rks 11]

My recently acquired VR6 has started ticking/tapping and it's slowly getting worse.

 

Happens on cold and warm. Happens on idle but gets faster with speed.. I.e when I rev the engine the tapping increases. I've given it a good run too.

 

The chains/tensioners and waterpump were changed 3k (2 years) ago. It's recently had a 10w40 oil change and oil filter in the last 500 miles. Oil level is fine.

 

The tapping seems to be coming from the cam cover/throttle body area. More to the drivers side rear of the engine.

 

There is a small leak from the rocker cover, but I plan on giving the car a fresh service for winter anyway (5w40, filter, plugs, leads, G12, vacuum pipes, rocker gasket and inlet gaskets).

 

I plan on doing the old ATF trick to clear any crap in the lifters.

 

But can anyone recommend me anything I should check before I start ripping it apart and replacing things? I'm completely new to VR's.

 

Thanks.

 

Rich

[Supercharged 2]

Sounds like a lazy tappet but do you know who did the chains?

 

I'd maybe take it back to them and also question the oil pressure tensioning bolt thingy!

[P3rks 11]

A local company in Rotherham who specialise in German cars. I don't think it's the cams/chains though. Service history is very comprehensive.

 

It was august 2009 when carried out and approximately 3,000 miles ago. So any comeback on issues will be null and void being so long ago; I would have thought.

 

What's the oil pressure Tensioning bolt!?

 

But, the sound is 100% coming from the drivers side rear and not the tensioners side. I suspect a lazy/sticky/blocked lifter too.

[swiftkid 1]

The tensioning bolt is a large approx 22mm bolt on the gearbox side at the back of the engine in the chain cover, it puts pressure on the tensioning guide on the chain. If its coming from the top I would say tappets, I wouldn't say its cams and chains tend to rattle rather than tap so I'd go with tappets. If you know what your doing you could take them out and clean them. Have you noticed any drop in performance?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Sure it's not just a cracked manifold or a split exhaust gasket? That can sound like a loud tick. My left manifold cracked, which would be roughly where you're hearing the sound.

 

Don't flush ATF through the engine. New tappets are only £6 each if it comes to that.

[P3rks 11]

Sure it's not just a cracked manifold or a split exhaust gasket? That can sound like a loud tick. My left manifold cracked, which would be roughly where you're hearing the sound.

 

Don't flush ATF through the engine. New tappets are only £6 each if it comes to that.

 

Not a bad shout.. The manifold was repaired (welded) a few months ago and also the front engine mount does have play.. It could have cracked again. Other than removing it; how do I go about doing this check?

 

The tensioning bolt is a large approx 22mm bolt on the gearbox side at the back of the engine in the chain cover, it puts pressure on the tensioning guide on the chain. If its coming from the top I would say tappets, I wouldn't say its cams and chains tend to rattle rather than tap so I'd go with tappets. If you know what your doing you could take them out and clean them. Have you noticed any drop in performance?

 

Ahhh, I see the tension screw now. I'm good with engines and cleaning tappets, I'm just unfamiliar with the VR..

 

I've not owned the car long enough to tell. It pulls like 190bhp should.

[fla 9]

If you need a new tensioning bolt i have one spare, wont be much - they're about £40 from VW! Main thing is to check it hold pressure, when you remove it you shouldnt be able to push the piston it. If you can, its failed.

[AB 0]

i have this noise also same place, its driving me mad, i changed the manifold and gasket and still have it. engine only done 105k.

[dr_mat 0]

I believe the oil pump drive shafts can make this noise too, they're driven from the centre sprocket on the timing chains and the noise amplifies up the back of the block so it sounds like it's coming from the head.

[AB 0]

EnthusiastOwned™ did you sort your problem?

[P3rks 11]

I believe the oil pump drive shafts can make this noise too, they're driven from the centre sprocket on the timing chains and the noise amplifies up the back of the block so it sounds like it's coming from the head.

 

interesting.. So a new pump will solve this or is it a part of the timing chain?

 

EnthusiastOwned™ did you sort your problem?

 

No :(

 

I've done the ATF trick for 200 miles then changed the oil for Motul X-cess 8100 5w40 oil with a VW filter. I've stripped the vacuum system, cleaned it out and checked for leaks. I've changed the exhaust system Manifold back and checked the manifold for leaks.

 

The oil change seemed to help a little but it's still there.

 

Next on the list is changing the TB, injectors, rocket cover and inlets (I have polished items so worth a try to see if anything changes) along with new inlet/exhaust gaskets all around and cleaning/replacing the tappets whilst it's all apart.

 

If that doesn't work I'll start to dig deeper.

 

I've also read that the inlet pressure valve amplifies any tappet sound, especially if the valve is broken. Maybe worth a look?

Edited November 23, 2011 by P3rks

[AB 0]

like i said eairlier i had very similar problems to yours, i have checked my manifold every where then got a stethoscope to listen to the lifters, i have finally found it with a bottle of baby talc which showed the blow................. from my head gasket, i have no water oil mix and it was only due to the dust cloud from the talc i spotted this.

 

hope this helps give you some where else to look

[winchbietch 0]

 

Anyone recon this is the norm or fooked?

[P3rks 11]

like i said eairlier i had very similar problems to yours, i have checked my manifold every where then got a stethoscope to listen to the lifters, i have finally found it with a bottle of baby talc which showed the blow................. from my head gasket, i have no water oil mix and it was only due to the dust cloud from the talc i spotted this.

 

hope this helps give you some where else to look

 

Wow! I've never seen that before.. Did you experience any loss of power? Is that the inlet or exhaust side?

 

Well, I have an update on mine.. It's burning oil. When I go down hill in gear but not accelerating - engine braking; At the bottom of the hill when I set off again it smokes. It only happens under this circumstance.

 

It has to be related to my ticking; so I'm guessing that on the increased vacuum whilst engine breaking oil is being sucked past the valves or rings, it's sitting not being burnt until I set off again. Unless it's doing it all the time but getting burnt off when driving so I don't notice.

 

I'm going to start with the basics and re-new the Inlet air pressure valve (as it's covered in oil so probably duff) and check out/clean the crank breather just in case either are blocked causing excessive pressure. Then I suppose it's a leak down test is on the cards to see if it's in valves or rings.

 

I took out the spark plugs and well, judge for youself:

 

Cylinder 1:

 

Cylinder 3:

 

Cylinder 5:

 

Cylinder 6:

 

Cylinder 2/4 are like cylinder 6.. So that bank seems good. Cylinder 1/3/5 look iffy. I can't decide if it's burnt oil or over fuelling on them though..

 

I hope it's not the dreaded cylinder bore oval wear. A cylinder head issue I can deal with..

 

Thoughts and opinions please guys?

 

---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 PM ----------

 

Oh.. And the sound it's making..

 

http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t57/MrRP/?action=view&current=4ea10a9e.mp4

[P3rks 11]

Does anyone have any insight into this? :scratch:

[Critical_Mass 10]

Classic signs of valve stem seals - especially if its on more than cylinders 1 and 6

 

Its bores 1 and 6 that suffer bore wear so id be expecting just those 2 plugs to be black if bore wear was the issue.

[VR6Pete 0]

Had a listen to your video.... on tickover sounds normal, but sounds top end (tappets) like to me... other symptons sounds like critical_mass has said, stem seals, replaced mine when doing the head gasket and timing chains last year.

[P3rks 11]

Righto..

 

Had the car compression tested today. The car was warmed up to 85°C oil temp before the test was done. A dry then wet test was performed.

 

Cylinder 1 - Dry 160 / Wet 185

Cylinder 2 - Dry 180 / Wet 200

Cylinder 3 - Dry 145 / Wet 160

Cylinder 4 - Dry 175 / Wet 190

Cylinder 5 - Dry 170 / Wet 180

Cylinder 6 - Dry 160 / Wet 170

 

I've done a bit of research and 160psi is factory standard with an upper limit of 189psi and a wear limit of 109psi. A 44psi max difference across the range. So i'd say mine are all within tolerance. If anything for a standard, original engine with the original headgasket with 130k on the clock is pretty damn good.. Although the Cylinder 3 does concern me though being lower than the rest... Any thoughts?

 

I also changed the oil from the 5w40 Motul xcess 9100 which was recommended on here to Synta Silver 10w40 and the smoking seems to have stopped, or at least to the point where I can;t see it out of the back window any more. The tapping is still there though.

 

I think a cylinder head rebuild is on the cards really. At least I don;t have oval bores anyway.. phew! :dance:

[Supercharged 2]

That oil is very thin for an old car... Synta may improve things!

[P3rks 11]

That oil is very thin for an old car... Synta may improve things!

 

Yeah, it was water when I drained it. i just went by this threads advice: http://the-corrado.net/showthread.php?51329-VR6-Oil-amp-Spark-plugs

 

the Synta has improved the smoke but the tapping is still there :(

Edited December 3, 2011 by P3rks

[P3rks 11]

Can anyone confirm if my compression readings are ok or not?

 

Pweeeaaasse!

[floppyman 0]

Well im not shure if its the same noise as mine... But what I can confirm is i have lived with it for over 5 years now and using the car every day... I know it doesnt help but ive done everything on it apart from new valves and cylinder rebore... Ho... And crankshaft and conrods thats it. And still noise is there. Makes you think what ot could be?

[Duck 10]

Wow! I've never seen that before.. Did you experience any loss of power? Is that the inlet or exhaust side?

 

Well, I have an update on mine.. It's burning oil. When I go down hill in gear but not accelerating - engine braking; At the bottom of the hill when I set off again it smokes. It only happens under this circumstance.

 

It has to be related to my ticking; so I'm guessing that on the increased vacuum whilst engine breaking oil is being sucked past the valves or rings, it's sitting not being burnt until I set off again. Unless it's doing it all the time but getting burnt off when driving so I don't notice.

 

I'm going to start with the basics and re-new the Inlet air pressure valve (as it's covered in oil so probably duff) and check out/clean the crank breather just in case either are blocked causing excessive pressure. Then I suppose it's a leak down test is on the cards to see if it's in valves or rings.

 

I took out the spark plugs and well, judge for youself:

 

Cylinder 1:

 

Cylinder 3:

 

Cylinder 5:

 

Cylinder 6:

 

Cylinder 2/4 are like cylinder 6.. So that bank seems good. Cylinder 1/3/5 look iffy. I can't decide if it's burnt oil or over fuelling on them though..

 

I hope it's not the dreaded cylinder bore oval wear. A cylinder head issue I can deal with..

 

Thoughts and opinions please guys?

 

---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 PM ----------

 

Oh.. And the sound it's making..

 

http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t57/MrRP/?action=view¤t=4ea10a9e.mp4

 

This is the same as my VR, going to pull the plugs tomorrow to have a look but hopefully it's the breather valve. Found them for £40ish new on eBay so going to try that.

[P3rks 11]

Old thread!

 

Might as well update it. Since this thread I've changed the water pump, the auxiliary tensioner, FPR and injectors - all made a huge difference to running sounds. I ended up putting the suspect noise down to a worn tappet and just the VR normal sounds. I now use 10w60 oil and it's nice and quiet now. No smoking at all or suspect noises, spark plugs are always nice and clean upon removal and the car goes like stink.

[Jim 2]

Wow - 10w60? I went up to 10w50 and it really quietened things down but thought 10w60 would be too thick for a VR.