VR6 won't start :o(

[jonrb 0]

This problem has previously been posted on the Yahoo eGroups, so apologies if you have already seen it there. :)

 

My trusty VR6 which I have had for almost 8 years has let me down. :(

 

When I try to start her up, the starter motor engages and the engine turns over but does not start. Whilst this happens the fuel pump relay clicks 1 or 2 times a second.

I've replaced the fuel pump relay, but this has not cured the problem.

 

The problem is not down to the immobiliser. If it were it would either not turn over or it would start and then immediately die, so we can eliminate that.

 

It could well be the fuel pump itself, but someone has suggested it might be the ignition relay. However, my local stealer can't find said relay on EKTA and I don't know which relay is the ignition relay so I can't pull it and note down the part number either. Can anyone tell me which it is?

 

So, in summary

 

a) Does anyone know the part number of the ignition relay and/or

b) Has anyone had the same symptoms as me and can tell me what they did to fix it?

 

Thanks in advance

Jon

1996-N VR6

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Pull one of the plugs and check you're getting fuel and igntion..... if neither, the crank sensor is dead (G28) and that will be £140 from VW.

 

If sparks but no fuel..... fuel pump.

[davebirl 0]

I had a similar problem, turned out to be engine relay 109. see thread below

 

http://the-corrado.net/.archive/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

 

hope u get it sorted

[jonrb 0]

Well, I checked the 109 relay last night when I got home. Unfortunately it looks virtually brand new - no corrosion, heat damage, or anything. :(

 

I think I'm going to have to get the nice RAC man out on the 'At Home' (aka. Home Start) part of my policy and get him to diagnose it for me.

[crazymarcel 0]

I have a spare 109 relay, can send it too you and u can borrow it if you like?

 

Although they not much brand new. Its worth checking or changeing just to rule it out. Unfortuantly on mine it wearnt this was the crank postion sensor and is a one place only buy mine cost £123 pounds and somethin pence.

[jonrb 0]

I have a spare 109 relay, can send it too you and u can borrow it if you like?

Thanks for the kind offer - very much appreciated. Unfortunately bridging the relay doesn't solve the problem ergo replacing the relay won't either. :(

 

See my next post for more info....

[jonrb 0]

The RAC man has just left after spending at least an hour trying to diagnose the problem.

 

Unfortunately he failed to fix it, but we've eliminated quite a few things.

 

1. It's not the fuel pump relay because I replaced it. He also bridged it with no change.

2. The fuel pump is working because it primes when the relay is bridged and also he could feel the fuel rail pulsing when I turned the engine over.

3. The coil pack has voltage and the amplifier is powered.

4. The coil pack itself is unlikely to be at fault because I only replaced it last December.

5. The coil pack is not getting a switching signal though, and hence there is no spark on the HT leads.

6. The ECU relay (109) is probably not at fault because he bridged it and that didn't fix it.

7. The battery voltage was slightly down, but he attached a power booster and it didn't fix it.

 

So given the above, it is very likely a fault somewhere in the ignition switching circuit. It could be the CAT 1 alarm / immobiliser. The immobiliser arms and disarms ok and when armed the engine won't turn over, and when disarmed it will, but it is possible that there is a loose connection in the wire(s) that interrupt the ignition circuit since CAT 1's have to immobilise in 3 places so it is possible it is only partially working. Not conclusive, but may be worth getting an alarm guy out to do an alarm health check at the least.

 

Other than that, I think I'm looking at a home visit from an auto electrician. :(

 

Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas before I do?

 

Thanks in advance

Jon

[dazzyvr6 0]

what alarm is on it?

[jonrb 0]

It's a Sigma SG30 which last had a health check in October 2001.

[Mike Edwards 0]

Crankshaft position sensor.

 

Won't start without a working one...

[Gaz154 0]

i would try the earth strap i had all sorts of starting and running problems before replacing it try cleaning up the connections first and see if that makes any difference

[jonrb 0]

New information.

 

I went out to the car tonight to check on a) the no.16 fuse and b) the revs when trying to start, both in order to answer Guy's questions.

 

No.16 fuse is fine, firstly.

 

I turned the engine over - not a flicker on the rev counter - and then, suddenly, she caught and started! However, she sounded very lumpy and died almost immediately. So I hopped into the driver's seat and tried again, but this time giving it a bit of gas. She started again, and whilst I held the revs up with the accelerator she stayed running, but when taking my foot off and letting her idle she either immediately died or settled into a very lumpy idle at around 500rpm.

 

So what does this point to? Idle Stabilisation Valve? Ignition / electrical problems still? The wind suddenly blowing through my beard from a different direction? I dunno. :(

[Jim 1]

I don't know Jon, but I sympathise.. there aren't many problems that leave both the forum and the eGroup slightly stumped.

 

I look forward to hearing what the problem (and the solution!) is / was as this must be exceptionally frustrating :(

[dr_mat 0]

It's beginning to sound like the temp sensors...

[Mike Edwards 0]

You have a beard???

[Supercharged 2]

You have a beard???

 

Well thats the problem Mike, its not a Corrado, its a rover 800 series....

[dr_mat 0]

VAG-COM reveals all.

I went to visit Jon's VR today (had a great spin in the simply awesome 5 litre, 350 lbft, TVR Chimera too!), laptop and cable in hand.

Having finally got the laptop to talk to the ECU (not quite sure why but it did seem to take a little time to connect up), we figured out that the car is showing:

 

00336 Idle Speed Adaptation Limit Reached

 

And that's the only code shown, so we're guessing the problem is the ISV.

We also found a front/left ABS sensor out.

 

So after the computer bits, I took him out for a spin in my VR so he can see the point of the Schrick manifold. I think it left a good impression, even if the cabin rattles didn't.. :)

 

So, we're guessing GSF/ECP are the usual suspects for the best price for a replacement ISV then!

 

Oh, and Jon, if you wanna let me know the name of your mechanic bloke and some contact details I'd maybe consider using him for my VR too. :)

[Ice White Socks 0]

so we're guessing the problem is the ISV.

[/quote

 

These are only a ten minute job to clean out- and I reckon a quick squirt of WD40 into the bugger after that might stop it happening again, worth a try maybe :?:

 

Yes I had the same fault code about Idle adaptation limit reached and it was the ISV like you said. Good man for sorting it out though Dr Mat- Glad it was something relatively simple 8)

[dr_mat 0]

I offered that as an option too, Ice White Socks, but ultimately it may be aswell to just get a new one.

 

BOSCH n/a 436440050 IDLE CONTROL VALVE £138.20

 

Not that they're cheap, mind...

[jonrb 0]

Public thanks to Matt for coming over with his trusty VAG-COM (fnarr - said "vag" )

 

I beleive I have got the stain out of the passenger seat of the TVR now. :twisted:

 

I think I may have a go at cleaning the ISV as a first step - after all, I can't make it any worse, can I? I think you mentioned carb cleaner, Matt? I'll pop into my local Halfrauds in the week and get some.

 

Thanks again

Jon

[Guest]

I take you didn't :

 

(a) Read the measuring block to see what the ISV adaptation value was

 

or

 

(b) perform the output checks, one of which is to test the ISV?

 

What the code is telling you (in the context of Jon's fault description) is that the ISV cannot open wide enough (allow sufficient air through) to reach the required idle speed. This may be because the ISV is faulty or stuck but it could also be because the pipes to/from the ISV are pinched/crimped/blocked/damaged.

 

Jon, check the pipework while you're cleaning the ISV. If you need someone who knows what he's doing, I'm at a party in the area next weekend, post here or the eGroup if you're still stuck next week.

[dr_mat 0]

No, we didn't go the measuring blocks route (though I thought about it afterwards). Might have been interesting, but it didn't occur to me at the time. (It was hard enough getting communication to the ECU in the first place, didn't wanna talk to us.)

Given that nothing around there has changed, I doubt the pipes are crimped. They may have suddenly started leaking, but given that the reported symptom was "fail to start", not "stalled, then failed to start", I'm inclined to think that the moving part (the ISV) seized during the time it was left standing.

[jonrb 0]

I'm planning on getting VAG-COM capability in some shape, manner or form within the week. The current dilemma is whether to get the standard opto cable like Matt's for just reading the Corrado, or a PRO version so I can read my wife's Cupra as well and the S4 (or RS4 if funds allow) that I plan to replace the Corrado with one day.

 

Either way, I hope to have some way of reading the values myself in the near future, so I can always do those tests myself.

 

Blue Nothelle: Thanks for your kind offer. As soon as I've had a go at cleaning the ISV and seen what that does, I'll send you a PM about the weekend. Fingers crossed that cleaning it will solve the problem. :)

 

What I don't understand is why the car failed to start for so long and then suddenly it starts but shows all the signs of a duff ISV. I hope the ISV isn't masking another problem, like a failing ECU or something.

 

Anyway, I'll pop into Halfrauds tomorrow (I won't have a chance to today) and get some carb cleaner and a spline key to get the engine cover off as well. Does anybody know what size I need to get?

I have a torx set, but Matt tells me this won't fit. Tools, eh? No matter how many you buy you're always without the one you need. :roll:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

A 6mm allen key will get the spline bolts out. Or if you want to buy a set of 12 sided spline tools, make sure 8mm is one of them.

 

AFAIK, VAG-COM will read any VAG car with an OBD2 socket..... have a look at http://www.ross-tech.com to confirm.

[jonrb 0]

VAG-COM will read any VAG car with an OBD2 socket.

Only cars up to 2002. For 2002 and onwards you need a different cable.

 

Actually, that would be ok. I'm not planning on getting a post-2002 S4 and my wife's Cupra is a 1999 car. Duh! I am an idiot. :)

 

Thanks guys - I'll just get the cheaper opto version and use VAG-COM release 311 in that case.

 

Edit: Thanks for the info on the spline key, Kev. I'll gently use a 6mm allen key in that case.