Timing Chains

[Roger Blassberg 0]

Timing chains are getting a little noisy on my '94 VR6, especially at around 1500 rpm. I want to get all the bits together before I start the job and I have read numerous threads on this subject.

 

I recall somewhere talk of using modified/non-standard parts - was it a MK4 Golf top tensioner?

 

I would be very grateful if someone could post a full list of the genuine OE parts which I will need together with their part numbers. In return I will undertake to do a "How to..." for the benefit of others.

 

I'll be changing the clutch as well.

 

My question is, do I have to take off the flywheel to get the chains out? It seems logical that it is necessary unless the bottom chain is so long that it can fit over the flywheel in situ. Is the flywheel simply bolted/dowelled onto the crankshaft flange, or is it on a taper like on a Mini?

 

How best to support the engine when the transmission mounts are disconnected? Is the temporary beam support spanning between the wings available to buy or hire from anywhere?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Best wishes

 

RB

[gibber 0]

Here is you engine support:

 

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.as ... 2050&g=107

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Chris (2CC) is currently doing the job and will be doing a picture guide, so a PM to him for a parts list might be your first port of call. Yep, I would urge you to upgrade to the MK4 solid polymer upper pad and corresponding spring/Hydraulic tensioning bolt.

 

All of the chain parts come to around £200 IIRC but the MK4 items are cheaper than the old Corrado parts, so you save a wee bit there.

 

Yes the gearbox and flywheel has to come off, as does the side cover plate (what the coilpack bolts to) and rocker cover. Flywheel is bolted to the crank.

 

A brace bar spanning the inner wings is what Stealth use and you should be able to buy them.

 

You'll also need a 12 sided star/spline tool for removing the nearside driveshaft flange.

K

[Tekara 0]

Not long since had mine done, wish id had the garage space and equipment to do it myself. Knowing me id have given up half way and left it all to collect dust.

Thing i had to laugh at was my mechanic gave me all the timing parts in a carrier bag when he'd finished. One expensive carry out.

[Supercharged 2]

Car Mechanics Magazine have currently got a guide on the rebuild....

[Roger Blassberg 0]

Thanks to all for advice; I have now got the 2nd part of the Car Mechanics article, (Jan 05 edition), too late for the first part so I'll get the back issue.

 

What's all this about simplex/duplex upper chains? I assume that mine is duplex currently (engine manufactured late 1993/early 1994). Is this compatible with the later type Mk 4 tensioner or would I have to change to simplex top chain and sprockets to use with it? Instinctively, I feel safer with a duplex chain, but I suppose the change was made for a reason on the later engines.

 

The article is a real doom-laden tale. What is the experience of people here of having to relace the bottom chain sprocket - complete with crankshaft !!!!!

 

Best wishes

 

RB

[Kevin Bacon 5]

You always get doom and gloom stories in those type of write ups but don't forget these experiences generally only happen to people that just don't look after their cars and wouldn't know a chain noise from a stick of candy floss.

 

OK.....simplex and duplex.

 

All Corrado VR6s are duplex chained for the cams. Golf VR6s were duplex up to 95 or 96 and then went over to the simplex cam wheel arrangement and then finally the MK4 where production of the 12V VR6 ceased.

 

Vince and I pondered on the duplex chain chewing the MK4 tensioner pad away but our fears were unfounded. After 10K mine had a slight groove worn into the centre which was the pad 'shaping' itself to the chain partition but no other marks anywhere.

[2cc 0]

Hi Roger, Just seen this post. I'm at work right now but have all the part nos & prices at home & will pm you when I get in later. Also have loads of photos of the job - just got to rebuild it now I've finally got the last couple of bits I needed. There are no doom stories with this, its real easy

Rgds Chris

[fla 9]

2CC please post up (including pics) and get it stickied - might be useful to others.

[dazzyvr6 0]

anyone got the part numbers for the chains etc...

[joebloggsVR69 0]

Here's what I changed recently:

(Thanks to 2cc for the original excel doc & part numbers!!) 8)

 

 

TIMING CHAINS

(lower chain)

1 x lower timing chain - simplex 021 109 465B £30.26

1 x lower timing chain tensioner 021 109 467 £21.17

2 x bolts, lower timing chain tensioner N905 350 01 £0.14

1 x lower timing chain guide rail 021 109 469 £2.93

1 x lower pin 021 109 471 £1.38

 

(upper chain)

1 x upper timing chain - duplex 021 109 503A £60.98

1 x upper pin 021 109 511 £9.08

1 x Bolt, tensioner for Golf Mk4 top pad 021 109 507B £23.81

1 x Tensioner, Golf Mk4 top pad 021 109 509E £7.14

1 x mid pin 021 109 515A £5.78

1 x upper timing chain guide rail 021 109 513 £7.89

1 x hex bolt N010 272 4 £0.26

1 x hex bolt N010 352 10 £0.64

 

 

CLUTCH

Clutch clutch kit; p/plate, f/plate, release bearing 021 198 141AX £120.00

 

6 x 12 point head bolt N101 010 01 £0.32 each

 

1 x Guide sleeve 02A 141 180A £8.07

1 x Oil seal 085 311 113 £12.10

1 x Round seal N903 543 01 £1.86

 

3 x spline socket head bolts N903 554 04 £0.25 each

1 x clutch release arm 02J 141 719B £13.76

1 x Spring, clutch release arm retaining 012 141 741 £0.38

1 x Ball Pin, clutch release arm pivot pin 02A 141 777 £2.38

1 x Grease for clutch plate G 000 100 £4.96

 

FLYWHEEL

1 x Flywheel 021 105 269BX £73.95

10 x flywheel fixing bolts N905 398 01 £0.90 each

[Supercharged 2]

Not a bad price for a flywheel there! - was that exchange without ring-gear?

[joebloggsVR69 0]

All the prices are excluding VAT though.

 

The flywheel came complete with the ring gear attached. It's brand new (not a reconditioned one)

 

I was supposed to get £30 back when I returned my old flywheel, but because there were no VR6 flywheels anywhere in the UK at the time I ordered it, the $tealer had to order it direct from germany.

 

I was told that because they had to ship it over from germany, I couldnt get any money for returning my old flywheel (sounds kinda odd to me..)

[NickVR6 0]

Sounds kinda typical to me !

[Roger Blassberg 0]

Well, those prices look good to me too - except that duplex chain. I think the clutch, genuine article, can be had for a bit less if you LUK around...

 

Best wishes

 

RB

[Stan 24v 0]

Out of interest, can the parts above be source elsewhere? GSF for instance?

 

Is there a price difference?

 

Or is it better to use VW stealers?

[Roger Blassberg 0]

Yes at least some of the parts can be bought from other sources. But my attitude is that this is such a fundamental job that it's best to have the genuine articles. Especially if you are having the work done by a garage, the saving you may make using pattern parts is relatively small.

 

Best wishes

 

RB

[dr_mat 0]

Plus I believe there's a two year warranty on engine internals from VW..

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Well, those prices look good to me too - except that duplex chain. I think the clutch, genuine article, can be had for a bit less if you LUK around...

 

Best wishes

 

RB

 

Don't LUK around, use a genuine one, and also get a new flywheel. I got one aswell which was also brand new and not a recon, which the X in the part no denotes.

 

If you lay out a SACHs, a LUK and a VAG clutch all on a bench....you'd go for the VAG. Now, the odd thing is the VAG clutch consists of a LUK pressure plate and a SACHS friction disc and throw out bearing. However, the machining that goes into the 'OE' spec units is far superior to the SACHS or LUK aftermarket 'replacements' from GSF. The pressure plate fingers on the VAG LUK plate are ground down so that they're all the exactly the same height so that the throw out bearing runs true....the others aren't and therefore causes juddering.

 

The VAG clutch is also heavier than the other two, so attention has also been paid to the pressure plate spring strength too.

 

Take it from someone that's on his 4th (warranty) clutch, go for the VAG, and as you say, these fundamental jobs need the best parts.

[joebloggsVR69 0]

Take it from someone that's on his 4th (warranty) clutch, go for the VAG, and as you say, these fundamental jobs need the best parts.

 

Phew, good job I got the VAG stuff then :D

Was thinking of getting the clutch from GSF initially, but for peace of mind I went with the proper VAG kit. Was only about £20 more I think..

 

And I managed to get a 10% discount at the stealers :wink:

[dr_mat 0]

I'm beginning to wonder if my clutch isn't worth swapping now.. I don't get much judder, but it does judder from time to time, usually at very low revs. I put that down to the engine moving and oscillating on the mounts...

But then, given that the garage are going to have to replace my track rods under warranty, and have already done the tappets, I feel like a stool pigeon for asking for more stuff under warranty!!

[NickVR6 0]

Mine does that Matt, and it squeeks/hums very slightly sometimes when I pull away, thought it was all mount related.

 

CAN I JUST ASK--------Who on this forum has had a timing chain failure ?

[joebloggsVR69 0]

and it squeeks/hums very slightly sometimes when I pull away

Maybe there's a mouse under your pedal :wink: :)

[NickVR6 0]

No, could never happen, it would be far too cheap to fix!

 

Sweet motor Joe btw, fab paint job. Hurts spending that kinda money but i bet you just stare at it all the time now.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Matt, the clutch shouldn't judder at all.... as I've discovered finally....it's like a cloud over my head has dispersed, LOL!

 

Poor old Vince has had so many VR clutch issues to sort out over the past couple of years. LUK finally admitted there was a fault with their manufacturing after he sent them 10 dodgy units....SACHs don't want to know and VAG are the light at the end of the tunnel, even though they use bits from both LUK and SACHS....it's a crazy world people....

 

Oh and the tappets.....changed mine tonight and silence is golden once more......it seems both the VAG and GSF tappets are both made by INA. So there's no point giving VAG £20 a tappet when they're the same as GSF ones...that we can now lay to rest. Vince said the tappets to avoid are any that don't have INA stamped on them.....which GSF sometimes sell, but generally they're usually INAs.