The Forced Induction VR6 thread

[jamminvr6storm 0]

Yes fella, all the same.

 

I would advise you spend a bit when buying a gauge, the cheaper ones are usually inacurate.

 

Its looking good btw... :)

[herisites 0]

Yes fella, all the same.

 

I would advise you spend a bit when buying a gauge, the cheaper ones are usually inacurate.

 

Its looking good btw... :)

 

Cheers mate! Well i dunno whats cheap and whats not! Them revotec ones are £50, so is that ok?

[CrazyDave 0]

Nice work Rob, coming along well!

 

Have you sorted out a wideband AFR meter?

 

Can't stress enough how important this is, and don't want to be a doom monger or anything. But you will destroy your engine very quickly if it runs lean on boost. Your fuel system is going to be loaded up a lot more than it has ever been before, so fuel pump, blocked filter, low voltage at the pump, all or any of this could cause the fueling to go lean.

 

Innovate LM-1 or LC-1 and gauge would be my choice. Mr Beige got his from Bill Shruvington (a megasquirt guy in the UK who is an Innovate agent). The LM-1 is good as you can also datalog whilst driving, do some gentle runs up the road and see how it's running. Then you can build it up a bit at a time, checking the AFR after each run and making sure its nice and rich 12-11:1 ish.

 

Could save you the cost of melted pistons?

[herisites 0]

Cheers for that info Dave. How much we talking then for one of them and how do they work/fit?

[mrbeige 0]

Cheers for that info Dave. How much we talking then for one of them and how do they work/fit?

 

Just send an email to Bill and ask him how much dude...here is his email, he mostly answers his emails in the evening...

bill @ shurvinton.fsworld.co.uk

[herisites 0]

Cheers Stu, i have emailed him so will wait to hear from him.

 

Can you give me a bit more info on what yours is and how it works etc? Any pics?

 

Had a sneaky look on ebay and there are some that can be got cheap but im guessing they are going to be a bag of w*nk! To be fair THIS one doesnt seem too bad and would match my DDI dials nicely :D i have got a feeling though that you are going to tell me to stay clear and the one i want is going to be several hundred pounds or something :(

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yep, as already mentioned, you defo get what you pay for where boost gauges are concerned and also wideband controllers and displays.

 

I have that exact same Revo one you linked to, and frankly it's pants, more of a 'boost o meter' than an accurate way of measuring boost.

 

I replaced it with this digital one (second one down) which is incredibly accurate, tiny and very easy to read - http://www.turbobits.co.uk/acatalog/digital_turbo_boost_pressure_gauge.html

 

Where the Revotec was showing 9psi, the digital shows 6.8psi and I confirmed it's accuracy by comparing it with the MAP sensor readings from my DTA.

 

As for wideband, I can't get along with the Innovate LC-1. It's too flakey and I don't trust the readings.

 

I have therefore bought this - http://www.plxdevices.com/products/m300/

 

It's basically the same probe and controller you get in a OE ECU, but in a handy offboard package. This means it will be accurate and reliable as OE parts have to be in order to maintain rock steady emission control. For £200ish quid, it's a bargain imo.

 

You can even output a narrowband signal into your stock ECU, so it's fully compatible with OBD1.

 

Short of the awesome MoTeC PLM (£900!!), it doesn't get much simpler than that 8)

[herisites 0]

Cheers for that Kev. So the revotec is no good then? :( shame that as it looks so oem! but at the end of the day i really will need an acurate reading as the regulator im getting off storm is only good for about 7 psi and we dont know exactly what psi i will reach with the 80mm pulley on my charger (remembering its the older SP30-84 model so wont be anywhere near as powerful as mr_fusions 75mm on a C30-94!), Martin at R-tech said the 80mm on my charger will give about 0.5 bar which is about 7 psi correct? If it gives more than that and the regulator is only good for 7psi max then its going to be running lean isnt it? Which again is where the AFR will come in to play!

 

Is it still a good idea to have these gauges even after the ECU has been mapped properly? Most guys running chargers (vortechs mind you) dont have these and its always just been a case of fitting the charger, mapping it and off they go!

 

Im just trying to work out if i can afford these right away, i will definately be able to afford them soon as my ahem student loan ahem will be coming my way :wink: :lol: but i intend to fit the charger very soon, but the car doesnt need to be used for a while so i can fit it and get it runnig and just try to hold myself back from taking it for a drive until i know its running correctly.

 

Would any of you guys be able to help set all this up? As i have NO idea on how it all works and as soon as you guys start talking geeky im totally miffed!! :lol:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Cheers for that Kev. So the revotec is no good then?

 

Nope! I bought it for the same reasons as you, it matches my VDO gauges perfectly but sadly it's a rough guide only.

 

the regulator im getting off storm is only good for about 7 psi and we dont know exactly what psi i will reach with the 80mm pulley on my charger (remembering its the older SP30-84 model so wont be anywhere near as powerful as mr_fusions 75mm on a C30-94!), Martin at R-tech said the 80mm on my charger will give about 0.5 bar which is about 7 psi correct?

 

Yep, 7.25psi to be precise :-) 1 bar being 1 atmoshpere, or 14.5 psi. I still think the BEGI would be better for you. The storm reg sounds too close to the limit for comfort, plus the BEGI is cheaper anyway and fully adjustable. But that's just my opinion :-)

 

If it gives more than that and the regulator is only good for 7psi max then its going to be running lean isnt it? Which again is where the AFR will come in to play!

 

Possibly, you'll have to try it and see! The lambda and MAF will take care of the fuelling in closed loop mode, but when you floor it and go open loop (no lambda control) you could be a tad lean, but the MAF should still trim it to a degree and yep, that's why AF measuring is so critical!

 

Is it still a good idea to have these gauges even after the ECU has been mapped properly? Most guys running chargers (vortechs mind you) dont have these and its always just been a case of fitting the charger, mapping it and off they go!

 

Absolutely!

Vortechs all behave in the same way. You throw them on, they don't do much below 4K and you simply set the fuelling to be 12.5 AF on open loop, simple. Rotrexes and turbos are far more aggressive in their boost delivery and you have to keep an eye on the fuelling at all times.

The AF gauge is your first clue that something is wrong (or exhaust gas temp). The map may be good, but things like cam sensors, MAF sensors, injectors, knock sensors etc can all go, which you won't immediately know about on the move. So if you suddenly see 16:1 AF on boost, you know you have a problem!

 

Im just trying to work out if i can afford these right away, i will definately be able to afford them soon as my ahem student loan ahem will be coming my way :wink: :lol: but i intend to fit the charger very soon, but the car doesnt need to be used for a while so i can fit it and get it runnig and just try to hold myself back from taking it for a drive until i know its running correctly.

 

What better way to spend your loan :lol: I would bash the charger in and don't hammer it until you're happy it's all working properly and have got the gauges etc.

 

Would any of you guys be able to help set all this up? As i have NO idea on how it all works and as soon as you guys start talking geeky im totally miffed!! :lol:

 

Where are you based? I can get it all in and running no probs, providing you're not in John O groats or somewhere daft!

[herisites 0]

Im in Rushden, Northamptonshire mate. I am ok to fit the charger as Karl is going to help me (legend!). So will get it in and running. Then when i get the boost and AFR gauges i may need some more help setting all that up as well as get an understanding of what im looking out for! I know what im looking for on the boost guage, not to go over 7psi (although im pretty sure storm have said it can be ok up to 8psi at a push without foobaring the engine but to be safe they recommend 6-7, i will phone them!), but the AFR i am completely in the dark about, i just need one of them that has Rich - OK - Lean on with big colourful lights green for good and red for bad and i think i will be ok :lol:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

LOL! Lean - OK - Rich is Narrowband mate and frankly, pants for forced induction!

 

Wideband is a peice of cake to understand, loads of websites explain how it works and it's benefits! I would explain but it would take up too much space, but bascially, on part throttle boost, you want the Air Fuel ratio (AF) to be 13:1 with 3-4psi on the gauge and from 6 to 10 psi, you want 12:5:1, but dropping to 12 as you approach max revs and max throttle.

 

So long as you see those numbers in those conditions, that's all you need to worry about!

[herisites 0]

Fairy nuff! Im slowly getting there :lol:

 

Can you not get an all in one boost/AFR/EGT etc etc thingy mabobby that tell you it all in one go to save having loads of gauges everywhere like jap cars!!

[marcus 0]

Just though id post an update on the project. Oil cooler, exhaust and brakes went on today. Tim needs a couple of days to set up the fuelling, actuator settings etc MOTnext week,so should get the car back taround wednesday. :D

Running 10psi for a couple of weeks.

[alex303 0]

looking good Marcus....those brakes look very familiar too! :)

 

Just though id post an update on the project. Oil cooler, exhaust and brakes went on today. Tim needs a couple of days to set up the fuelling, actuator settings etc MOTnext week,so should get the car back taround wednesday. :D

Running 10psi for a couple of weeks.

[KADVR6 0]

looks like i'm gonna be joining you turbo nutters soon :lol: hopefully within 6-8 weeks i should be getting a full vr6t set up with a GT3O76R Turbo 8)

[KADVR6 0]

well its looking like a 100% done deal with the turbo kit i'm getting :)

 

the kit includes the following, turbo manifold, GT3076R turbo, begi rising rate regulator, tial 50mm BOV, all the ARP bolts needed, a C2 motorsport 1.5mm stainless head gasket, green tops. and loads of pipewok/silicone hoses. they are from a mk3 so some will fit, and some will not. so here goes for some stupid questions :? will the exhaust downpipe from a mk3 fit onto the corrado?? or will i have to get another one made up?? also are green tops really needed?? i thought red tops would be ok?? and is there anything else i will need??

 

also gonna be getting a chargecooler, really cant stretch to the schimmell at the moment :( but what about this one, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DRAG-RACING-LIQUI ... dZViewItem

 

i'm waiting for normancoal to come back to me about the schimmell SRI, so i'm hoping it will all be done in the next couple of months.

 

cheers guys

 

karl

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Is that the kit that was for sale on the VR6OC?

 

Wouldn't mind seeing some pics of the manifold and downpipe as I'm thinking of changing mine, so need some ideas from other kits!

 

Yep, MK3 downpipe will fit.

 

Green tops definitely needed if you're going for a bar of boost, which you most definitely will :lol: Reds will only support about 10psi max. Turbos need more fuel than supers.

 

Hard to say regarding that chargecooler.... you won't know until you get it installed and monitor the intake temps.

[CrazyDave 0]

4" Inlet and outlet pipes seems a little over the top! Maybe if you contact them they could make them a little smaller.

 

The water feed points would need to be on top to prevent airlocking so the air inlet / outlet connections are on the wrong side. They would be better 90deg either way. And better still the hose tails at 45deg to the cooling core.

 

I've seen these things used on a few engine test beds and they work very well, but they are fed with 10deg chilled plant water.

 

I ran 440cc injectors with Megasquirt and 8psi and they are a bit big for idle fuelling (running at about 1.7ms~). 330cc would be a better bet as Kev said already.

 

Get some pics on Karl, £1500 turbo kit is a bit of a bargain.

[KADVR6 0]

ok cheers guys, no kev the turbo kit was not the one from off the vr6oc, but a mates mate of a mate??? he needs to sell it after being copped doing over twice the speed limit :lol: so needs to sell this kit to pay off the fine he will be getting. i'm not gonna help him with the time inside though.

 

i have e-mailed the company about what you said dave :thumb right: ideally i want the schimmel, but just cant justify it at the moment. :( but they also do this one http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BRAND-NEW-LIQUID- ... dZViewItem which is a virtuall schimmel copy, probably not as well made/designed. they also do a rather nice intercooler http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/INTERCOOLER-Polis ... dZViewItem

 

a while ago i saw this turbo manifold/downpipe kev, http://www.eiptuning.com/eip/turbomanifolds.html they look very good as the turbo will be lower down so they should get some nice cold air flowing over them??

 

i will get some pics ASAP,

 

karl

[CrazyDave 0]

That's a bit more like it. 3" is a far more sensible size for the pipework.

 

The water in / out tappings could do with being higher up though? I have a bit of trouble with air locking in the top of the CC, but I guess a couple of tapped holes higher up the end plate and a blanking plug is easy enough. I've always seen these mounted upright, water in at the bottom and out at the top, so it doesn't airlock. Not sure if you'll have space for that though? Sounds like a trial fitting job to me :)

 

Have you got Aquamist?

 

Mmm doin turbo time eh... not good.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Jimmi had that EIP manifold and had to modify it, might be worth PM'ing him about it.

 

What manifold did your mate use?

[marcus 0]

I had no problems with the Eip manifold (the whole left hand drive kit went on fine), I think its more down to the size of the turbo and pipework you go for, Jimmi using a huge Turbo.

I have 3' outlet which is a squeeze, but the engine needed to be raised almost an inch to prevent an rubbing. Thats with a t3/4 turbo. Hope this helps.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Wow that read perfectly, until I read the part about you raising the engine an inch :lol: Glad it's working for you though.

[Toad 0]

Karl, have you seen the charge cooler in the for sale section on here? It's a PWR unit like CrazyDave's, but a touch bigger...

 

Edit, link added.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Dave's works very well, I was impressed when i felt how cold it was after a run. I think his particular size core has flow support up to 350hp. Something to bear in mind as a VR6 running 1 bar is going to be 400hp.

 

The pump is very important and I reccomend the Meziere WP137 - http://www.meziere.com/index.php?pgName=Remote

 

It's one of their smallest remote pumps, but it pumps water from my boot, down the car, through the 2 foot wide prerad, through the cooler core and back down the car to the boot again in 1.5 seconds 8)

 

Dave and I are both finding that cheap schitt parts are causing us problems.....so I urge anyone doing a VRT.....do not put cost before function. Buy the good stuff on day one, or not at all. You'll regret it, believe me!!