German Plates Crackdown

[Musicman 0]

I am not a criminal,

 

But you are, that's why they can issue a £60 Fixed Penalty Notice. :?

 

If I get pulled by a desperate and bored copper who is needing to do some paperwork, then I may consider changing my plates back to standard spec

 

You'll get pulled by a copper whose job it is to go after ANPR violators. His motivation will be that revenue gained from your FPN is hypothecated income for the local Police Force, er 'Service'. Even if you have regular plates in the boot, it's too late.

 

From the ACPO document again

 

Whilst hypothecation from ANPR activity will never fully fund all of a force’s ANPR activity, it can be useful in assisting developments. From April 2005, this facility is available to all forces. Under the hypothecation scheme, 2% of income will be used to fund national support to ANPR developments, whilst the rest will be retained by forces. As the level of potential income is unlikely to exceed the full costs of ANPR activity, it is unlikely any of the income will be passed on to the Treasury. As such, hypothecation under ANPR will not be used to raise central government income but will all be directly reinvested in fighting crime.

 

All Forces are urged to take this up, under Project Laser 3. In doing so, forces will be assisted by ongoing national developments and by good practice learnt from Project Laser 2. This should ensure increases in both the level of tickets issued and the income recovered from tickets issued.

 

As such forces should aim from April 2005 to:

 

• Issue at least 310 FPNs per full time equivalent intercept officer per year (the average issued under Laser 2)

• Recover at least 50% of the face value of tickets (the average under Project Laser 2 was 42%, with best performers reaching 60% and the worst only 20%).

 

In setting this relatively low target level for income recovery, it is recognised that ANPR is targeted on the most Prolific Offenders. This group involves those most likely to elect a custodial sentence rather than pay a fine.

 

The treasury has made it clear that unless income levels are higher under Project Laser 3 than under Project Laser 2, the scheme may be terminated in March 2006. It is crucial the service maximises this source of income now or face losing it. Forces which elect not to engage in hypothecating ANPR income risk endangering the future of this facility for the service as a whole.

 

[ their emphasis, not mine ]

 

The Home Office Study evaluating ANPR showed that there was a (disappointing) return on investment of around 10%. It's up to the Police to show they can do better than that if they're going to keep using the system and develop it.

[gradeAfailure 0]

ach, b4lls to the lot of 'em i say... :lol:

 

anyone for a mass forum emigration?! maybe if we all chip in a bit we could buy one of those small eastern European countries and install our own government...?

 

Corradoland! (with exceptions for Passats, obviously ;))

 

I hate the way they always justify the intrusion of big brother by saying "if you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear" - what the hell ever happened to personal liberty and freedom of the individual...?

[Campaign 0]

Believe it, one of my friends had his private plate taken off him about 5 years ago, AND they took away his MOT making him have another test with correct plates. He was stopped three times in 6 weeks. This was a rare occurance back then, nowadays I'm not so sure ...

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I am not a criminal, I drive a little above the limit and use German plates, I will not be made to feel like I am what is wrong with this country.

 

Totally agree. Typical draconian English beurocracy I'm afraid, they big up the pedantic, trivial little things to give themselves something to do and play down the important matters that honest, hard working citizens actually give a schitt about, but can't be arsed to sort or don't know how to....

 

For instance, as a contractor I can only pay so much money into my account as dividends. I exceeded it by some pathetic amount and I too was made to feel like a criminal, receiving a letter from the IR stating that I could be sent to prison, or fined, or both. And the people that pay no VAT or Tax at all get away with it, and I'm a crim for over paying myself a few hundred quid.

 

FFS, I can't tell you what this pedantic schitt makes me feel like doing to those inside the Houses of Parliament.....but it fecks me off no end. Yes I did wrong, but come on, surely wrong doings can be put against a scale of importance and context??!

 

Sorry, rant over..... it's all a crock.....

[ZippyVR6 0]

I still dont consider myself a criminal, and if we are splitting hairs here I will live "outside the law".

 

the above report could also be translated to read that a return of only 10% could mean that the police think it is as ridiculous as we do. and quite frankly have more to do with their valuable and paid for time.

 

60 quid is a sound investment to stick your middle finger up at them IMO.

[Musicman 0]

For instance, as a contractor I can only pay so much money into my account as dividends. I exceeded it by some pathetic amount and I too was made to feel like a criminal, receiving a letter from the IR stating that I could be sent to prison, or fined, or both. And the people that pay no VAT or Tax at all get away with it, and I'm a crim for over paying myself a few hundred quid.

 

Don't get me started on the Inland Revenue... I got stuck out of the blue with a demand for nearly £11,000 a couple of years ago, despite my protests that I should owe them no more than £4,000 after I'd ceased being self-employed. It got as far as the point where they were going to take me to court with all sorts of threats before I was forced to pay up (racking up interest payments on £11K in the meantime). My finances were not a pretty sight at the end of 2003 as a result.

 

Lo and behold I found myself £7650 in credit when the annual statement dropped through my letterbox last December, without so much as a by-your-leave. Even then they somehow managed to lose £500 in the repayment that was supposed to go to National Insurance (had to pay them separately in the end) and I didn't get that back until the end of this summer.

 

:x

 

(sorry, went a bit off-topic there :oops:)

[bcstudent 0]

Where's jamescorrado when you're looking for a reasoned argument about something important, like civil liberty?

[Supercharged 2]

bcstudent, LOL!

[Jimbo 0]

NUMBERS??? LETTERS??? ARGGGGGGHHHH!!!! GATSO ANPR SPECS TRUVELO VASCAR FPN blah blah blah

 

So even though I (aim to) drive my C at a law abiding MPH these days after being caught a couple of times on a VASCAR & given a couple of FPN's.

 

I am now liable for another FPN or even a CCJ because my subtly C4M VR spaced number plate upsets the ANPR?????

 

Even though I respect GATSO's TRUVELO's WATCHMAN's SPEEDCURB's TRAFFIPHOT's SPEEDMASTER's & SPEC's!!!!!

 

Why cant motoring just be about BRMM BRMM BRMMM ? thats what I was brought up on as a child! :roll:

[White2505 0]

please note this is not a dig at any individual but this thread has brought up points which are heard regularly on forums, in the pub and in the media and I thought I'd have a stab at answering it from my perspective. I'll apologise if this post seems preachy but hopefully it may offer some insight for you all.

 

I'm sure many of you already realise from previous posts I'm one of the aformentioned plod. I have the pleasure of working in the beautiful North Devon countryside as a response officer, .(obviously the views below are mine alone and not necessarily those of D&C constabulary) I dont have the luxury of driving round in a plush volvo dealing with motorists all day like my dedicated traffic colleagues. I do however spend a lot of my time out and about in a patrol car. I tend to have a day of variety one minute I can be dealing with an assault, the next dealing with a road crash, then possibly fighting with drunken idiots falling out of the pubs etc etc. As such I regularly see traffic violations like these but don't always have the time to deal with them BUT if I do stop you for something like this you can be assured I do have the time to deal with it in the way I feel best. Your attitude plays a part in this decision. Oh yes and contrary to popular belief I do not have a target of tickets to issue, I do not personally see any revenue from tickets I do issue although a percentage of ticket revenue is ploughed back into road safety schemes and I only rarely eat donughts!! ;)

 

As far as the innocent motorist goes heres my thoughts:-

I passed my test over twenty years ago, I've passed the advanced driver training course and have since had various police driver training courses. I am currently a qualified response driver so I occassionally get to use blue lights and sirens. Every journey I make I am trying to assess my driving within the system I have been taught. I review my mistakes and try not to repeat them. I try to repeat those good aspects of my driving, but no journey I make is truly perfect, its a constant battle for me. I am always trying to assess and adjust my speed and position on the road. I am observing external hazards presented by the road layout, other motorists, the speed I and they are travelling at, the prevailing weather conditions, the road surface and dozens of other factors. I ALWAYS find room for improvement. Even with all that I know my driving skill falls below the standard of my advanced colleagues on traffic, and I know it. I take EVERY opportunity to upgrade my road driving skills

 

Many motorists train to pass the driving test and then never have any form of instructional driver training again. Unfortuantely over time many motorists gorget they are driving in excess of 3/4 ton of unforgiving metal becuase they are so isolated from the sensation of noise, wind and speed within their vehicles.

Some, who in all other aspects of their life are completely law abiding citizens, will drink and drive. Many drivers have an extreme lack of patience and tolerance for other road users.

Others drive too fast, some drive to close to the vehicle in front, some have spent money on modified engines for their cars but have bu**er all tread on their tyres, others overtake vehicles with little or no regard for other road users,

many many drivers make extremely poor driving decisions BUT because not every poor decision is instantly punished by a huge pile up they continue making these poor decisions in the mistaken belief that they are good drivers.

When they are stopped and spoken too they are often beligerent and unprepared to take on board any educational advice about their driving, they often have a far higher opinion of the standard of their driving than is truly warranted but rather than accept any kind of advice they would sooner argue about how the 'innocent motorist' is targetted unfairly and should'nt the police be out catching murderers.

 

The fact that they/ their wife/daughter/son or husband is statistically FAR more likely to be killed by one of these innocent motorists than a murderer never enters their persecuted heads.

 

Trust me, the first time you have to go and tell someone their husband/wife/child has been killed in a road traffic accident changes you, it changes the way you drive and it changes the way you view these 'innocent motorists' forever.

I've dealt with too much wreckage, too many dead bodies in pieces and had to give too many death messages to their families to have much sympathy for those that feel they are being persecuted on the road.

I dont stop motorists for fun, I stop them because of their driving or their vehicle simple fact is Drive safe, drive sensibly, drive legally in a road worthy road legal car and me and my colleagues will almost certainly have no need or desire to stop you

 

End of preaching...... for now anyway

[dinkus 10]

Hah, slightly OT, but I saw a Rover earlier with the plate R668 CUM.

 

Made me snigger. :)

[White2505 0]

number plate on my last patrol car was WA03PYG last three letters were obviously dreamt up by someone with a sense of humour!!

You can imagine what the local scumbags made of that

[Musicman 0]

I imagine it wasn't just the local scumbags :D

 

I don't think I'd disagree with just about anything you've said in your previous post, White2505. In some ways, I think I'd probably be in favour of mandatory re-testing of drivers on a regular basis, say every seven or ten years, to address many of the things you've mentioned.

 

Unfortunately, none of that is the point at issue. Forgive me if I've made the wrong assumption, but your description of yourself as a 'response officer' and your description of your daily work leads me to conclude that you're not part of one of the new ANPR intercept teams and thus don't operate under the same guidance that they do. If you are, it may be that Devon are working in a slightly different manner to that outlined by the Association of Chief Police Officers.

 

To my mind, there are three issues at stake:

 

1. Currently, it is perfectly legal to have a set of non-regulation number plates for use off the public highway. From the information posted by Joy at Dubmeister, it seems that particular freedom, enjoyed by many of the users of this forum, is under threat. I appreciate this is not quite your domain of law enforcement, but rather a matter for legislators and the DVLA.

 

2. As you have made clear in your own post, regular officers such as yourself are currently able to exercise their discretion when dealing with members of the public who may have committed minor offences relating to the format of their number plates.

 

If my reading of the ACPO strategy document is correct, ANPR intercept teams now present in every force in the country are discouraged from exercising that discretion. Why? It is necessary for ANPR to demonstrate revenue-returns in excess of the levels found during the Laser 1 and Laser 2 trials, so that the Police may receive the continued support of the Home Office for ANPR deployment.

 

Furthermore, retention of 98% of the income from FPNs resulting from ANPR intercepts will provide a useful revenue stream for other police work (Section 2.3, Para 14 of the ACPO ANPR Strategy 2005/8 ). The targets set out are straightforward: "at least 310 FPNs per full-time intercept officer per year" with a 50% recovery rate vs the face value of those Notices.

 

The objective is clear, to maximise revenue, in the short term at the very least:

 

The treasury has made it clear that unless income levels are higher under Project Laser 3 than under Project Laser 2, the scheme may be terminated in March 2006. It is crucial the service maximises this source of income now or face losing it. Forces which elect not to engage in hypothecating ANPR income risk endangering the future of this facility for the service as a whole.

 

Since it is a stated objective of ACPO to ensure that “Police Forces to undertake ANPR activity as an integral part of mainstream policing activity, ultimately to be funded from core capital and revenue,” it is likely that this technology will impact on your own role in the short or medium term.

 

3. There are wider issues surrounding the civil liberties implications of widely deployed ANPR, supplemented by Electronic Vehicle Identification, which both ACPO and my own city government, the Greater London Authority, seem keen to promote. It is not impossible to imagine that, with the suggested retention of vehicle movement data for up to five years, compounded the exchange or sale of that same information to commercial organisations, the opportunities for abuse are many and various. These concerns need to be addressed.

 

I should perhaps add that I have only respect for the Traffic Police from the Hampshire Constabulary who stop regularly at No-Rice meets. They do get the plush Volvos, I'll admit :) but they're courteous, willing to engage in conversation and often quite enthusiastic about the VWs that turn up at Fleet. If only Guildford police had been that way, but they had a very different perspective on several hundred Volkswagens descending on a car park...

 

I have nothing against most police officers, but I do reserve the right to question some of the policies that their superiors and political masters are pursuing.

[White2505 0]

1/ absolutely, initially the legislators and dvla will make the decisions here BUT unfortunately it will be down to the police to enfroce those decisions and some of the posts in this thread and others show how little people appreciate getting a ticket from us.

 

2/ No I dont do the ANPR thing but D&C does have it in the traffic cars. As an example of the positive way in which this is already used. We have LOTS of people who for some reason want to come to our area to commit suicide from all over the counrty. The vehicle their using gets entered on the anpr system therefore should they ping any of the fitted vehicles they're detected and helped at the earliest opportunity. Likewise various known scumbag cars have their egs in the system also (cos where ALWAYS keen to have a friendly chat with them!!). But we at ground level do not contrl what numbers are put into the system.

Currently the kit used for this is too bulky to go in my patrol vehicle but it is only matter of time before I get it as well. Personally at this stage I welcome it as anything that helps me to do my job helping the public and taking scumbags of the streets is okay by me.

Note though, the kit tells you a vehicle is 'of interest' the oficers having stopped the vehicle still have full discretion in normal circumstances as to what happens next!

As for the fpn target, less than one a day for the intercept team I can assure traffic would be looking to do more than this because their core role is the road policing strategy of which education and enforcement form an integral part. As I said previously I am unaware of any of us on the ground having a target of tickets to issus per day etc so this may be something new for the anpr team.

 

3/ Dont disagree at all on the civil liberties thing but it must be put in perspective.

You'd be suprised how many of us in our spare time race bikes or run sports cars, we enjoy a hot motor as much as the next person.

[Nick 0]

Now ive tried to read all of this thread but ended up scanning over most of it as it got a bit too technical for my young brain! It also seemed to go slightly OT from German Plates.

 

White2505, mr. policeman sir. (or anyone else) From your thread above (preaching) It didnt mention anything about the German plates. I have the metal pressed german plates, bought from Germanplates.com. They are white and yellow as required, and were advertised on the site as "UK legal plates". The spacing is correct, but they are not screwed on. They arent in a crazy illegable font. How is this a danger/threat/criminal offence or unlawful to an extent that you are given points and a fine? This is not me having a go, id just like to know why this is wrong.

[ZippyVR6 0]

The number plate recognition system used in patrol cars cant detect if you are a terrorist or a wanted fellon. So going on guilty till proven inocent you must be trying to dodge the law and are liable for a 60 note fine.

[Musicman 0]

A sample of what's to come from the DVLA, courtesy of Paul from Dubmeister

 

How your show plates will look in the future:

 

[Yandards 0]

White 2505 I agree with many of your points about driver complacency and skill fade.

 

Too many road users in this country forget that driving is a skill that needs to be practiced and continuously improved upon.

 

However, I still believe that many of the political policies, some of which are forced upon the police and some embraced, are flawed.

 

Any system of law enforcement that gives the front line officers targets will results in an excessive and often disproportionate number of individuals prosecuted that would normally have been given a quick talking to and sent on their way.

 

Speed, sorry safety, camera partnerships are a prime example of this - as they are self funding many motorists are prosecuted who previously would have had a caution. This entire situation is furthur inflammed, as the government continue to extract extortianate taxes from road users and to let the condition of the infrastructure decline. I am not going to deny they are not breaking the law but what ever happended to the 'speed appropriate to the conditions' caveat?

 

For me the issue here is not about the law enforcement aspect of ANPR cameras; it is to ensure that as they role out congestion charging across the country there will not be any 'easy' way to get around it.

[Musicman 0]

Just in case anyone had doubts that this was real

 

DVLA Web Site

 

We will introduce legislation to make it an offence to supply any plate bearing a vehicle registration mark and designed to be fitted to a vehicle or trailer that does not comply fully with the display requirements and British Standard as contained in regulations. Regulations will be made to exempt plates with wording such as “NOT FOR ROAD USE” printed on the face of the plate.

 

Many suppliers sell plates showing vehicle registration numbers, often with a disclaimer that they are not for road use because they do not comply with regulations. Nevertheless, these plates are often fitted to vehicles and in some cases it is difficult for cameras or eye - witnesses to identify the number correctly. We intend to prevent this by making it an offence to supply a plate displaying a vehicle registration number that does not comply with regulations.

 

The second part of the proposal would give show plates legal recognition for the first time and allow a legitimate trade in show plates to continue. This would be achieved by making an exemption to the above offence for plates with a disclaimer printed on the face of the plate. This issue prompted more comment than any other. There was a broad consensus that the distinction between vehicle number plates and show plates needs to be clarified. However, some consultees were concerned that any move to recognise ‘show plates’ in legislation would leave a loop - hole for vehicle cloners to exploit and argued for a total ban on any plates that did not comply with regulations. Having taken all factors into account, we believe that making a clear distinction based on the use of wording on the plate itself would assist the police in the prosecution of offenders.

[dazzyvr6 0]

thats not likely to stop people selling plates as a lot of them come from abroad,mine came direct from germany

[chubbybrown 0]

A lot of this stuff doesnt apply in scotland yet.

they do have the ANPR it even tells them if the vehicle in front of them isnt taxed,Brother in laws a bobby and he got bored doing traffic.

You can still buy number plates over the counter with No I.d,usually to some poor soul in London dodging the inner london car tax.

 

I know many cars that come from dealers that dont or are not held by screws usually in Number plate holders just like the ones at justmatz.

 

 

Bottom line is Big brother is out there.

[White2505 0]

Now ive tried to read all of this thread but ended up scanning over most of it as it got a bit too technical for my young brain! It also seemed to go slightly OT from German Plates.

 

White2505, mr. policeman sir. (or anyone else) From your thread above (preaching) It didnt mention anything about the German plates. I have the metal pressed german plates, bought from Germanplates.com. They are white and yellow as required, and were advertised on the site as "UK legal plates". The spacing is correct, but they are not screwed on. They arent in a crazy illegable font. How is this a danger/threat/criminal offence or unlawful to an extent that you are given points and a fine? This is not me having a go, id just like to know why this is wrong.

 

Apologies if I went o/t this thread had comments about how the police would or would'nt enforce it and other threads in this section have also made reference to how the police would or would'nt deal with certain matters, additionally the comment was raised in this thread as to why 'innocent motorists' are treated like lepers.

I thought it might be of interest to those on here to know how many of us plod see things and why we act in the way we do. If I went to far o/t or offended then that was not my intention.

 

As to your specific number plate point, the short answer is off the top of my head I dont know (I'm not traffic and certainly don't live, breathe and sleep traffic law) at this time if the spacing, colour and every other aspect of the plate is road legal then the german bit would most likely be overlooked however there may well be an offence here. Would have to ask one of my traffic colleagues to be sure.

As to the future, if the current guidelines become law then it looks like you would definately be for a ticket.

[dr_mat 0]

But the law dictates the *exact* font that must be used. German plates don't use it, therefore are not legal ... (Whether they do or don't use "crazy illegible fonts" is not important.)

[Henny 0]

dr_mat, do you find it as weird as I do that the LAW dictates the font, but an MOT doesn't? The MOT just states that it has to be legible... :|

[gradeAfailure 0]

just another excuse for the government to put "legal" surveillance on otherwise law-abiding tax-paying citizens... remember, it won't be long before there's black boxes in cars - at which point, I'm bl**dy emigrating...