The Suspension Discussion Thread

[g0ldf1ng3r 13]

So I just failed an MOT on a leaking (standard) shock. Which is a good excuse to get some new ones. Assuming I want something that isn't going to rust in 5 minutes, so stainless, I don't really care about "stance", but I do care about handling... what are my options?

 

I could of course read all 100 pages, but I'd rather not :).

 

price will be one of your main factors

 

what budget have you in mind?

 

also, when you say 'handling' what are you after? IE as close to OE as possible, a nice smooth ride & no desire to adjust height or the ability to set ride height & damper settings?

[Timbo 0]

price will be one of your main factors

 

what budget have you in mind?

 

also, when you say 'handling' what are you after? IE as close to OE as possible, a nice smooth ride & no desire to adjust height or the ability to set ride height & damper settings?

 

Yeah that about sums it up. It would be nice to reduce the understeer and body roll (I imagine this is more anti-roll bar territory really), but I don't have any desire to be constantly fiddling with settings. Basically I don't want to compromise handling in favour of aesthetic ride height changes. Having said all that though, I wouldn't mind things being a little firmer, if it means an overall more pointy car.

 

Budget wise? I don't know really, if I was to replace the standard VW shocks I imagine I wouldn't be getting much change out of £600-1000? So let's go with that.

 

TIA

[Timbo 0]

Looking like the consensus is KW V1s or Bilstein B12s? Hmm.

[jayjay73 10]

You can import B12s from Germany for about £475 delivered UK (buy whilst the Euro is weak). Should be within your budget. Aesthetically it's not too low and the handling is very good imo...

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

Just make sure you get the right b12s.

[Timbo 0]

Yes, I'm leaning the B12 way. I read a bunch of independent reviews saying the KW V1s are on the hard side. I'm assuming these are the right ones:

 

http://www.bilstein.de/en-uk/products/sport-and-threaded-ride-high-adjustable-kits/bilstein-b12-pro-kit/ i.e. the ProKit not the Sportline?

[Timbo 0]

You can import B12s from Germany for about £475 delivered UK (buy whilst the Euro is weak). Should be within your budget. Aesthetically it's not too low and the handling is very good imo...

 

Sounds like you've been there, done that. Did you use a particular website?

[Sean_Jaymo 0]

You only get the pro kit for the Corrado but Eibach have some dodgy batches knocking about that means the back sits about 60mm lower instead of the normal 25mm. I've got a set like this that I've spent the last 2 months trying to sort out. Eibach won't be getting anymore of my business based on how poor their customer service has been. But that's a rant for another day.

[g0ldf1ng3r 13]

Yes, I'm leaning the B12 way. I read a bunch of independent reviews saying the KW V1s are on the hard side. I'm assuming these are the right ones:

 

http://www.bilstein.de/en-uk/products/sport-and-threaded-ride-high-adjustable-kits/bilstein-b12-pro-kit/ i.e. the ProKit not the Sportline?

 

indeed the KW V1's are a little firm but the suspension is not at fault, it is our awful UK roads

 

get them on smooth surfaces & round the twisty's they are superb. i haven't touched my ARB's & absolutely love taking the VR round the clover leaf where i live

 

IIRC KW will provide the V1's with a slightly softer spring rate, which i think Kev Bacon said was excellent as it removed a little harshness without compromising the performance too much. im sure if you drop him a PM he wouldn't mind sharing the info

 

that would be a slightly cheaper option than the V2's & once you have set the height as you desire you can just enjoy them & not worry about fiddling with bound & rebound rates etc

[jayjay73 10]

Sounds like you've been there, done that. Did you use a particular website?

 

I used mk-fahrwerkstechnik. As Sean says, you need to choose the right ones for your car (plusachse for 5stud VR6 - not sure about other models). More risky than using a UK supplier I suppose - would be a pain if you had to return to an overseas supplier if there was a problem - but I had no issues. But then again the lower price reflects the greater risk.

AMD seemed to be offering a good deal recently which included fitting in the price - depends on how mechanically competent you are. I am not a mechanic so had mine fitted by a Porsche VAG specialist.

[Thursdave 10]

Sorry if I'm asking a question thats been answered before, but 101 pages is a lot to look through!

 

My G60 is a bit wallowy through the corners, and I'd like to firm it up a bit. What would be better for that? Not looking for lows (although a little bit wouldn't go a miss), but less roll and a bit firmer ride is what I'm after.

 

Would a set of coilovers or a set of ARB's be better for that?

 

EDIT: Or a set of front upper and lower and rear strut braces?

Edited June 18, 2015 by Thursdave

[g0ldf1ng3r 13]

Sorry if I'm asking a question thats been answered before, but 101 pages is a lot to look through!

 

My G60 is a bit wallowy through the corners, and I'd like to firm it up a bit. What would be better for that? Not looking for lows (although a little bit wouldn't go a miss), but less roll and a bit firmer ride is what I'm after.

 

Would a set of coilovers or a set of ARB's be better for that?

 

EDIT: Or a set of front upper and lower and rear strut braces?

 

if it is wallowy it will be the dampers at fault.

 

ARB's are solid & as such shouldn't degrade over time in terms of the benefit they provide.

 

strut braces simply add to the stiffness of your dampers by further restricting the up & down movement

 

it really boils down to what I said in my post to someone else on the previous page of this thread

 

"price will be one of your main factors

 

what budget have you in mind?

 

also, when you say 'handling' what are you after? IE as close to OE as possible, a nice smooth ride & no desire to adjust height or the ability to set ride height & damper settings?"

[Thursdave 10]

Maybe wallowy isn't the right word - there's a bit of body roll when I turn in, and I'd like to eliminate most of that, if possible.

Not fussed about adjustability on either ride height or damper settings, just less body roll, and a firmer ride.

 

The front shocks are new (changed just before the MoT, along with the springs and top mounts and front brakes) so shouldnt be faulty.

 

Budget around £400 or so.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Thursdave

[g0ldf1ng3r 13]

Maybe wallowy isn't the right word - there's a bit of body roll when I turn in, and I'd like to eliminate most of that, if possible.

Not fussed about adjustability on either ride height or damper settings, just less body roll, and a firmer ride.

 

The front shocks are new (changed just before the MoT, along with the springs and top mounts and front brakes) so shouldnt be faulty.

 

Budget around £400 or so.

 

if your front shocks & springs are new then I would imagine the front setup is fairly close to factory - what is the bonnet dip & rise like when you brake hard or accelerate hard?

 

I know my VR before the KW fitting used to dip & rise quite a lot, however the shocks/springs which were replaced were probably the originals

 

how old is the rear setup?

 

suspension has increased in over the past 5 years, I paid £600 for my V1's direct from KW all that time ago, they are now around the £750 mark

 

no offence but £400 is not going to go far in terms of coilovers other than the cheaper brands which do not perform or last very well

 

perhaps it would be suitable to refresh the rear shocks & springs & then see how your body roll is, if at which point you want it a bit firmer then you could look at front &/or rear strut braces to further reduce the up & down travel & thus hopefully get the ride you desire

 

there are a fair few on here that like the bilstein B12 setup, IIRC, but I have no experience of them nor any idea about costs - hopefully someone will chip in about them for you

[Redfox 10]

Answer part 1:

 

Thursdave, I'll pass on my own experiences from working 4 years on my Corrado G60 and 13 years of working on my former Golf II.

 

Generally speaking the Corrado is in close relation to the Gof II, and certain parts interchange.

 

It is my direct experience, that the Golf II body is not as stiff from factory, as the Corrado.

The fact that the Corrado is lower, the front screen is glued in (also on the Golf II G60), and it is from factory designed to be a small sports car 2+2.

The same goes for what ever change you may do to both cars. The Corrado will still be sportier than the Golf II.

 

There are a long list of Things you can do to your Corrado.

First of all, I'd say you have a good point of starting, as you chose a G60 instead of a VR6, as that is the more American market model, meant to be cruising unstressed along loooong highways, hence the bigger displacement. It is the more nose heavy of the two. So I vote for the G60: it steers quicker, shifts less weight under hard curve-taking, and is lighter.

 

Still, as you have discovered, there is always a line of compromises, that a factory have to introduce, more so vw, as their cars are comfort oriented, not pure sports like say a Lotus or Lamborghini.

 

So, therefore I chose to build first my Golf II and later my Corrado, to be sharper handling, better powertransfer to the road, and a bit quicker.

First of all, I will note, that even though I tuned my Golf II more than 80 percent, that wasn't the point of the tuning. It was merely to turn a slow car into a faster car, albeit not superfast or anything like that.

 

Here's my observations and experiences with my Corrado (which is not tuned). My G60 is a late 1991 and is born with a better cylinderhead and better manifolds, plus a late type G-lader, which all in all gives 178 Hp, not the 160. I only added a special made exhaust and sportscat which I cut up and changed too, adding to 192 Hp. I have done this confirmed by a conservatively set up rolling road, together with probably the most experienced tuned and dyno guy in my country.

 

I have changed the front anti roll bar (front arb) to a fatter one from Eibach. That stiffens up the front end of the car.

In the set is also poly bushings for the installation on the car. This also takes up some slop, that soft rubber gives. So in effectiveness it stiffens up the car, and creates less body roll.

But if only the front arb is enhanced from standard thin to the fatter Eibach, it unsettles the balance of the car.

 

Therefore you have to install the rear arb too, from the Eibach set. Also with poly bushings in the box.

As the rear arb from factory is welded in, I left it in place.

This stiffens the rear of the car, and neutralise the steering effect, so you are in balance between front and rear, Again.

 

The total effect of this set is, that you have much less bodyroll in total.

The car steers much more direct, and quicker to steering input.

One may say in a popular way, that it makes the Corrado handle more gocart like.

The downside of this total set is that as you have less body roll, you will as a driver, have less of a warning, before the car skids out.

 

Being a front Wheel drive, there is by comparison to say my Lotus Esprit Turbo SE, MUCH more time to react and contrasteer.

The fact that it's a front Wheel drive Corrado (unless youhave built on a vw 4-wheel drive, like asyncro or newer), makes it harder to give hard gas, being in a Sharp turn. Less so in a wide curve. More so, if you have tuned your engine.

 

Next thing to do is to look at stiffening the body. Unless you want to fully weld all body panels and install a fully welded roll Cage. This makes for a superstiff car, I tried it racing in some beginner series for a short period, and it's not for street driving. It it super noisy and stiff, and a cigarette paper becomes a high bump to pass (in your back).

SO, forgetting that, you may install suspension Tower struts (what ever it's called in English). It is a stiffening bar between the two suspension Towers in the engine compartment, and similar between the two rear suspension Towers, in the rear luggage compartment.

I have tried a few, and to the best of my experience, the Eibach front model, is the best.

That is because is is a flat wide bar, light (aluminium), but mostly because it bolts widely. By that I mean, that the base you install (bolt) to each suspension Tower, is wide, and full circular. Not a small bracket or similar. The wider your base is on each suspension Tower, the better. THe Eibach one is the best in this department.

I must also say that steel did not enhance the stiffness, so aluminium is just fine.

Some of the carbon ones are just glued to an aluminium bar, so is just for looks.

 

I installed the Eibach front one, and voila, more directness and less bodyroll, and btw. also less squeaking form the Corrado's plastic interrior like the b- and c-pillar coverings.

What you also gain is a stiffening by less twist in the rear of the car.

I then installed a rear suspension Tower bar, first in steel, then in Aluminium. The later from Weichers.

Again less bodyroll, and quicker steering. More direct transfer of all input, so to speak.

 

Totally, these two stiffening bars, plus the two arb's plus polybushings in the set, gives a very direct car, and next to zero body roll.

I then went on to install a better suspension set. I have tried various brands, and I ended up with a KW, which is a bit on the soft side for me, but retains an acceptable degree of comfort. The more expensive ones have adjustable damping and return, so you can get exactly the behaviour you are looking for, and if going for say a trackday, can set it up harder. A streetcar will feel quite sloppy on a track, because you really push it, and usually the asphalt is flat and even. On a street, there have to be a certain degree of forgiveness, unless you want your Wheels to jump in the air all the time, and that is looseing traction and steering, and can be quite dangerous.

The presprings, helps the dampers to straighten themselves after an input of opposite direction, that is when the damper extends.

Eventually, you can have the springs or even the valveing set to your liking. But youneed some driving experience with that, to know what to wish for.

But I will stress, that a good quality set of coilovers are a must (to me at least). Easy to adjust, easy to rebuild and have good polishing of the internals, so there is less stiction in each damper (that a damper have more or less internal friction, therefore creating slower imprecise reaction and movement).

The cheap ones are Waste of Money and often makes your car handle worse and makes for a very crashy ride, and loss of roadcontact...

The downside of a coilover set is usually that you Loose a bit of comfort, but not compared to say only lowering springs.

I will stress, that some people set their suspension too hard, and Loose roadcontrol. It is not a positive thing to have as hard a suspension, as possible.

 

Don't fall for the temptation to install lowering sprng to the original dampers, as they need to be shorter in their body, to Work within their normal range when driving. Don't do it!

 

Next is bushings.

I've tried a few, and powerflex normal versions (not Black ones) are fine.

Ther are bushings for the track arms, and for me, they take some slop out of the equation. So rubber bushings quickly deteriorates and becomes softer, thereby changing the firmness and reaction of your car. THe poly ones (to a degree) makes this a bit (or much more) harder, while staying on to that point. It does not change over time. One time install (usually). Remember to lube them liberally with copperslip, when installing to avoid Wear and squeaking.

The two bushings on each track arm helps your steering angles and track Width to stay the same during not only straight ahead driving, but more so under load in a curve, or better still: a series of say s-curves. Highly recommended.

 

Next is the front cross member bushings in poly. They add to the lesser Flex in the whole chassis, and may give a slightly more hard ride. I mean minor.

The suspension bushings can be changed to poly as well, and gives less slop in the suspension movement, and more predictable reactions in the travel, as they are harder, and keep their value over time.

Remember that a car have to be able to absorb vibrations and bumps to a certain degree, and usually this is also incorperated into the rubber bushings all over the car. It can become too much.

I experience the normal powerflex are just perfect for enhanced backroad driving. Not the Black very hard ones. They are for track use.

I would not change the rear beam ones,as they are meant to move and control the rearwheel movement.

 

Next is engine mounts and gearbox Mount. It can be changed to new original ones or similar, or harder ones. I felt the rear engine one made more vibrations in my car, very irritating. Just put in fresh ones to original spec. Many seem to add a stiffer one in the front middle Mount, as this have the greatest effect on the engine movement. Haven't done that (yet). Will do though.

This removes too much engine movement, and you will not believe how mmuch better a Corrado feels. Highly recommended.

Btw. it also helps your gearchange to be more precise.

 

Next is gearchange. This can be changed a bit, so that it is more direct and shorter. I bought a revised gearstick on here, and it really felt better and faster, without violating your box. Gives a better control of the car, and less time shifting weight in hard curves, while changing gear upwards and accelerating.

Don't underestimate this.

 

Next is Wheels. Some people may think that as long they have the widest or largest in the block, they perform better. Not so.

I have experienced a variety of Wheels, and I will mention a few here. See answer part 2.

 

See part two below, as I couldn't write more than 10000 characters... ;)

 

Cheers,

Redfox.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Redfox

[Redfox 10]

Answer part 2:

 

Hello Again Thursdave. Here is the last bit ;)

 

- original Corrado G60 15" Wheels from vw (I think they are calleed Sebring). Not too heavy but carrying 195/50-15, they react somewhat comfortable and slow to steering).

- No name 16" x 7" with 215/45/16" (I think). Better straight control and less floppy tires, but also heavy to turn. The Wheels themselves are very heavy and not totallly precise made. May hit the inner Arches.

- BBS RM 15" x 6,5" with 195/50-15. Very much better. rounder and more precise handleing. Lighter.

- BBS RS001 15 x 7" with 195/50-15. Better still, Forged and lighter. Sharper steering.

- BBS RS (forged) 16 x 7,5" with 215/45-16. Much better. Light and better steering. Less comfortable, but better than the slow heavy Wheels as they are actually round and stays that way.

- BBS RC (forged version) 8" x 17" with 205/40-17". By far the best driving. More precise and very very light. Super steering. Doesn't hit anything in the arches. At least with my ride.

 

Remember that heavy Wheels are unsprung weight, and badly affects your car. And they may crack or explode under heavy load. I've seen some examples on a specialists workshop, when having mine measured and trued also for being perfectly round and straight. Never ever use bad Wheels.

Hmm, the same can be said About tires ;) Never use old or bad rubber. Same goes for girls ;) ;) ;)

 

Note: don't lower your car so much that you have negative angle on your track arms. 20-30mm is more than enough to enhance the steering and control and directness of the car. If you go over the horizontal angle on the track arms (arms should point downwards from center of car, towards Wheels, or not lower than level), you upset the reaction of the Corrado, and it becomes dangerous to drive in an unforseen situation and can spin around.

 

Next is a special bar between the Track arms underneath the front. The way that vw designed the front suspension makes for a okay ride quality and reaction and gives secure feeling. But under heay load, the track arms can change their distance and create a sloppy indirect feeling plus more oversteer. Generally the Corrado oversteers to make it safer for ordinaly Mrs. douchebag to drive it, though being better than many other cars in this department.

 

To counteract this, Companies like for example Weichers made a smart aluminium bar (also in steel), that is bolted in between the track arms and the front beam, and prevents the movement of these in unwished directions.

By installing that, I enhanced the precision under heavy load, and gained a sharper control of the car in turns. Recommended.

 

Finally, I wil have to mention your seats.

The Corrado seats standard, is a re-revision of the old Golf GTI seat, which is okay.

The Corrado Recaro seat is better holding your body. I had a Edition One interrior in my old Golf II and it held my torso perfectly. This gives much more feeling with the car and makes you feel less roll, though not actually changing this, only your own lean angle. The more firm your are stuck in the car, the better you will experience the driving precision.

In the Corrado, being a low and americanised car, vw chose to make the entry easier, by slimming Down the upper torso support to being smaller, thereby worsening your body's position in curves.

Further more Recaro made 3 different width's of their seat, and some have the narrow one, some the middle and so on.

I have the narrow one, which is fine for me, as I am slim and tall.

 

I decided to recreate the Corrado Recaro seats (front) by taking the complete foam piece from the seat back (or rather all around on the sides of the seatback) of the Edition One seats, and built this onto the Corrado Recaro deats. It demands that you transfer the small bracket inside the foam to the Corrado Recaro seatback as well. This makes the upper torso support MUCH better, being like the Edition One Golf II.

I also bought two BMW Recaro seats, slaughtered them and adopted their inflatable lumbar support, into the Carrado Recaro seat backs, while I reassembeled them. New leather on by the Recaro importer, and voila, I have the perfect electrically hight and back adjusted Corrado Recaro seat, that also have the much better support from the Edition One Golf II, and the inflatable lubmar support if I need that during long drives, say 2500km in one straight drive (done it a number of times) while also being heated.

The look is as per original Corrado Recar seats. So no silly racing seats in a normal sportscar, which Wear Down in one year, and is too low and is not adjustable and so on.

By doing this I gained much more control over the Corrado, enhancing my driving experience much more that I would have thought. I simply feel much more planted in the car, and can better experience what the Wheels are doing.

Highly recommended.

 

In total, if you do this like I have, you will have a transformed Corrado. While still being a good ride, somewhat firmer of course, it handles so much better, that it is actually another car. Next to zero bodyroll, precise Sharp handeling, and predictable Sharp direct steering, while having much less weight transfer during curves, that can unsettle the car (important), which eventually drops the joy and makes for a slower speed in corners (and straights).

Highly recommended!!!

 

I hope my brief explanation, which I stress is my own experience, may be of help to you. Some may think differently. You are wellcome to write back about it, or pm me if so needed.

 

And to add to what goldfinger said, I will second that: don't buy cheap susension, see my answer above.

Save up some dough and do the right thing. You'll not look back, just smile ;)

I can follow faster cars like the local Lotus Club fairly well on local trips, though it's not as good as my Esprit Turbo SE, of course. But as they said in Top Gear, the Corrado is one of those 25 cars in the World you have to drive! And that says a lot. And that is BEFORE any changes for the better...

 

Btw, if budget is tight, just buy the arb's and suspension Tower stiffening bars, second hand, They don't worsen with age. Saves you a fair bit!

 

Cheers,

Redfox.

 

edit: as an example of the effect of these changes, I can testify, that before, my wife was perfectly well with me driving the Corrado hard, but now, after all the changes, she get's ill and Dizzy and wants to throw up. Not because of for example a soft suspension (mine is not) like in a normal car, but because it's now firm and direct, and I can drive quicker ;) he he. I almost never fill the gastank more than half.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Redfox

[g0ldf1ng3r 13]

Refox that is awesome information & detail. I will read both parts with great interest thank you :)

[Jim 1]

That's one of the most comprehensive posts I've ever seen on here. A great knowledge dump based on a lot of experience. Thanks for posting it!

[Thursdave 10]

Cor, thats a big pair of posts!

 

Thanks for that, Redfox, it confirms what I was thinking - start with uprated front (and additional rear) Anti roll bars, then strut braces to stiffen it up more.

[Redfox 10]

Yes, that's what they are called: strut bars. Didn't remember.

 

well, you are most wellcome Guys, it's just my Humble experience. Others may differ. I am sure I'll ask all of you something soon (going to renovate my G-lader myself.

 

Sorry for the typos, I am not British by birth, and don't live in an English speaking country ;)

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]81832[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]81833[/ATTACH]

 

Cheers,

Redfox.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Redfox

[Thursdave 10]

You speak (type?) very good english, much better than our attempts at your mother tongue would be!

 

Would you only recommend the Weicher strut bars?

[Redfox 10]

No, I'd say look carefully at how the are bolted on, and how wide they span between bolts of attatchment.

The Eibach front one that I have, are the best design I've seen so far. For the rear, I tried a few, and ended with a Weichers.

The undercar one, between the track arms is also a weichers. That comes in steel too, if one wants that. Otherwise in aluminium as I chose.

Some comes with an adjustable length, but shouldn't be needed, unless something else is seriously out of spec.

So I would also look for a bar, that in itself is as wide as possible. The Eibach springs to mind.

There may be a problem though, as a few years ago, it was not offered for sale any more.

I originally flew to England and bought mine at a local London VW tuner shop. Don't remember which.

You can ask around, as some may have one NOS in the store, or apply for one on the web. This site springs to mind.

Afaik Eibach made three versions originally. I have the later one. There is even a link about it somewhere on the web.

 

Sometimes parts are made by someone else that the Company that Sells it. Same goes for racing suits, shoes etc.

 

You could even make one yourself. I'd be happy to go measure mine up (front Eibach one), but in my country, I have to document the part's international approvement and certification, otherwise it's deemed illegal, therefore not allowed to install and use on public roads.

But the UK have it quite different, it seems.

Same goes for big brakes etc.

 

Hope that answers your question.

 

Currently working on some ideas of stiffening up the chassis on this one:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]81838[/ATTACH]

 

Cheers,

Redfox.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Redfox

[Chuggs1 10]

Hi All - I have obtained a set of Eiback lowering springs and have been told that buying the B8s from Bilsteind make an equivalent of the B12 set.

 

I have had an email from Bistein saying the below - - HELP - what does this mean and what do I need for VR6 Corrado

 

Thanks

 

Thank you for your enquiry to confirm as you have lowered springs would suggest B8 dampers they are 2 options listed

 

 

 

Bilstein B8 - Sprint Damper 35-043928

Fitment Notes:

for vehicles with "Plusachse" only; mono-tube

 

Or we also list

 

Bilstein B8 - Sprint Damper 35-043911

Fitment Notes:

mono-tube

 

Please check details and i can confirm price and stock.

[Jim Bowen 1]

Am sure if yours is a 1995 VR it will have the plus suspension, i'm not totally sure what the difference on the shock is though

[fendervg 30]

All Corrado VR6s had the plus suspension with wider wheelbase - known as the "Plus-achsel" to VW. Also found on VR6 Golf MkIIIs as far as I know.