What's quicker - FWD vs RWD

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Never seen the SP car :shock: have you got a link to it?

 

It was in Redline a few months ago IIRC, or was it PVW? One of the two!

 

Mid engined, RWD, 24V twin turbo Corrado goodness :notworthy:

 

http://www.spturbo.com/mainpages/bill%2 ... orrado.htm

 

http://www.spturbo.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=334

[Sonicriot13 0]

Sorry for OT but what wheels are those?! They're awesome.

 

Edit: Found them. Perhaps a little out of my price range.... :lol:

[Leonard 0]

Never seen the SP car :shock: have you got a link to it?

 

It was in Redline a few months ago IIRC, or was it PVW? One of the two!

 

Mid engined, RWD, 24V twin turbo Corrado goodness :notworthy:

 

http://www.spturbo.com/mainpages/bill%2 ... orrado.htm

 

http://www.spturbo.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=334

 

Ooooo mamma, that is real nice :nuts:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Isn't it just! Love the wheels too, despite being 18s!

 

Food for thought...

 

Now where's my plasma cutter :D

[mic_VR 3]

So how much to do what SP have done on my car then Kev? £10-15K?

[Sonicriot13 0]

So how much to do what SP have done on my car then Kev? £10-15K?

 

Do it!!!!

[mic_VR 3]

So how much to do what SP have done on my car then Kev? £10-15K?

 

Do it!!!!

 

Er... not sure I've just got that kind of cash to hand mate :lol:

 

I wonder how that SP car actually drives and handles since the front of the car was never designed to not have an engine in there, and vice versa at the rear...... definitely an interesting build and I've got the PVW that car is in so I think I'll have a little read up on it later.

[Philuk 0]

surely it would understeer like buggary??

 

especially if you put any power down in the corners lol

 

stil fecking awesome tho! love it

[cardboard 0]

agreed the weight distribution of the car must be all wrong and it cant handle well unless going in a straight line and even then i bet it is very sketchy! like those big engined minis they are rapid but so light at the front end - you HAVE to have a full tank of fuel to keep the wheels on the ground lol!

 

im with the rear wheel drive guys!

when you boot it the car will sink rearwards as the centre of mass moves towards the rear of the car - this applies more weight over the rear wheels and reduces weight over the front wheels and this directly affects traction therefore speed off the mark etc. a rear wheel drive car will have better acceleration of the mark.

 

stick in some 4WD running gear!! then your a winner!

[mic_VR 3]

Yeah I think 4WD is the answer when it comes down to it. I'm never going to have the kind of spare money needed or mechanical skill to build a mid-engined car like SP have done, regardless of how awesome it is.

 

But as I'm planning on somewhere around the cool 400bhp mark I'm going to need more traction than FWD is going to offer, even with R888's and a Diff.

 

I'll be looking forward to hearing how the guys that are currently building haldex'd cars find them out on the road in comparasion to the original layout.

[KipVR 1]

There will be a shortage of Mk2 syncro's soon.....

[_leon_ 0]

mic_VR are you building a track car essentially? sure you have the right base car?

[mic_VR 3]

Not really a track car as such, although I am hoping to do a few trackdays a year in it. You thinking 4WD is a bit of overkill? I'm just thinking that it's silly to do all the work on a powerful engine and not be able to use it effectively.

 

But maybe I'm not thinking about it in the right way. Once rolling at say 30mph, if you bury the loud pedal is it going to matter whether it's RWD,FWD or 4WD?

 

Unfortunately as I said in my original post I've not had the chance to drive a good powerful RWD car so not sure what comparisons I should be making.

[_leon_ 0]

For the effort and money involved in changing to AWD/RWD plus turbo'ing, I'd sooner buy an Elise, Caterham, M3 or even an R32, depending on the intended use. Not that I've had a wealth of experience taking a Corrado on track (once - and loved it) or driving 400bhp (275ish for a while) Corrados - but when you have that money to spend, it would be worth considering other cars that might be better placed/more focused for the job. Just my opinion.

[KipVR 1]

This is a rather open ended discussion, and depends on many different factors, but mainly power output and driving conditions (ie traction)

 

Take two identical cars with different powertrains eg a golf Mk2 G60 and a Rallye. In totally standard form it's the fwd G60 that wins the race, because the main limit is with the small power output and the lighter more efficient 2wd set up wins. If you made those g60's 400hp the rallye would be the winner because traction is becoming the limiting factor. 300hp would be quite an even match I should think. If you then throw wet conditions into the equation then the traction threshold becomes lower, giving the advantage to the Rallye lower down on the power scale as the fwd struggles to gain traction.

 

RWD is somewhere in between. It is not as efficient or as light as FWD but more so than 4WD. It has the benefit of being able to divide the steering and accelerative forces between the four tyres rather than just the front two, and by doing this you have more adjustment of the cars attitude in corners via the throttle on the rear wheels. This is a very useful driving technique that many drivers like to use, and it's fun, but it doesn't make the car faster. In the wet it can become a hinderance too.

 

Engine weight and position play a huge part in a cars speed round corners, the more evenly divided over the four wheels the better, rear wheel-front engine usually offers even distribution.

 

The new sciriocco beat some seriously exotic machinery in the N'burg race, that was FWD, but it also had DSG which in an endurance race I can see being a real benefit.

 

Anyway better the devil you know!

[dr_mat 0]

The trick is to have RWD in very slow corners and for standing starts, and FWD for fast sweeping bends, without the weight/intertia penalty that 4wd brings.

So which is faster depends on in what circumstance you are talking about. In a straight line down a road from a standing start it's always going to be RWD.

You can bet that formula 1 cars won't go FWD though.

[mic_VR 3]

Hmmm, I see what you all mean. I have considered buying a trackcar, something small and nimble, but I can't use the C as a daily and don't really want to sell it. Basically I've got another engine sat at home that I'm hoping to turbo, aiming for about 350-400bhp, to replace my old unit. I wasn't really planning on much more than that and a gearbox rebuild with diff etc but people keep telling me (granted not people on here) it'll make the car a pig to drive. Now I've been out in Mr Wires VRT and I thought it was amazing, never felt anything other than perfectly composed and he's running ~400bhp through the front wheels.

 

I see there are plenty of arguements for each drivetrain layout, and I guess a lot of it on a road car is personal preference. I think I need to stick to my original plan and see how I find it.

[KipVR 1]

I think I need to stick to my original plan and see how I find it.

 

Stick to your guns man! And then show the M3's how the rear spoiler works :D

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I have it on good authority (from the man himself) that the SP mid engined Corrado handles very well indeed :D It wasn't built to be an engineering show case special. It was built to be a daily driver and look as stock as possible and drive just as well as a normal corrado, if not better....and that is not easy to achieve given the huge structural changes.

 

Supercars aside, nearly all road car engine layouts are compromises. Arm chair critics always bang on about the 911's engine being in the wrong place and Audi's and VW's with their heavy engines ahead of the front axle line, is also wrong. The same people state 200hp is the limit for FWD. But in a small place I like to call the 'real world', these methods do actually work and work well.

 

Anyway Mic, just plough on with your project, it'll be fine. I would build it to be a fast road car in the first instance and then fettle into a track day car as you start doing more and more laps. You need to do a good few TDs to find the car's weak areas first.

[Wendy 0]

Very interesting thread, enjoyed reading through the facts and opinions especially as I originated from Rear Wheel onto Front Wheel drive.

 

Am currently considering RWD as want the fun factor - although with BHP considerably higher than ever had before - do have reserves about the back end.

 

!! :lol:

[cardboard 0]

you want to do this to a C cos you love it :D and having any other car at 400ps just wouldnt satisfy you!

 

so if your keeping the engine in the same place then its only really 4WD or FWD in my opinion. Personally if you have the time and money and knowledge id go 4WD to get maximum use of all the power off the mark and in the early gears, even with the C at 190ps when u boot it off the mark you will spin the front wheels and chirp into second in the dry so imagine doubling that power. however im currently thinking about doing a VRT and mine will be FWD but i wish i could do 4WD, at the end of the day once you have had enough practise and know when the power is coming etc you will be able to apply the power very well in a FWD and only first gear will suffer i belive - just watch out for that boost kicking in when your cornering :wave:!!

 

when i was younger i put a metro turbo engine in a mini and that was 118ps in a 600kg car! insane torque steer and i had a sketchy boost moment through a long corner!! not for winners but luckily all was good!

 

go with your initial thoughts anyway bro it will always be insane cos its wat you wanted

[corozin 0]

Why is it felt necessary to have 400bhp to enjoy a trackday? You can have just as much fun batting around all day in a valver with 150bhp.

[StormchargedVR6 0]

I must say that laying down 400bhp in a corrado is not that bad . The corrado does take the power very well for FWD

When you look back at the RS Turbo with a bit of power they were a pig to drive.

 

I would say to anyone wanting to go VR Turbo to go for it, its the best thing i did :)

[KipVR 1]

Why is it felt necessary to have 400bhp to enjoy a trackday? You can have just as much fun batting around all day in a valver with 150bhp.

 

It's necessary just to pi55 off 911 owners. :grin:

[mic_VR 3]

Why is it felt necessary to have 400bhp to enjoy a trackday? You can have just as much fun batting around all day in a valver with 150bhp.

 

It's necessary just to pi55 off 911 owners. :grin:

 

PSML, exactly! :lol:

 

Must admit I loved the trackday I did in my car in its current state but this is going to be my weekend toy, not a trackday car although I will no doubt use it on a couple of tracks if I get the chance.

 

Don't know if you've seen my other thread about basic motorsport? Hoping to have a go at racing in the Golf GTi cup in (maybe) the 2010 season so that'll be my main track fun.