Crazy Daves Bog Standard 16v :)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Glad you're still enjoying it 8)

 

If my recent rolling road tune is anything to go by, your 8psi should equate to around 320hp ;-)

 

I don't think a Milltek Sport cat will be strong enough for a turbo. I had one and my Supercharger started breaking it up. The cells didn't look too healthy after a year's use. It was fine for NA use though.

[CrazyDave 0]

Been a while, but been trying to get time to sort a minor problem with off boost running. On boost it pulls strong as ever.

 

I checked a few things this afternoon and got to the bottom of it, and I'm pretty sure it's nothing in the engine.

 

During warm running I noticed a small stumble (like a mild misfire), it was another reason that the MOT emissions had been so close (as well as the other stuff).

 

So today after driving home I checked the compression and all cylinders are about 10.5bar +-0.25. Which sounds OK considering the compression has been lowered with a spacer. It also means that the valves, head gasket and pistons / rings etc are OK. But I didn't think the head gasket was the cause because I've had no signs of water loss or oil contamination, excessive water pressure etc. But still nice to comfirm it's OK.

 

The plugs looked fine but no.6 seemed a little different in colour, and it was a bit wet?

 

I could smell fuel in the exhaust at idle so obviously not happy?

 

So I bit the bullet and took the front of the car off and removed the manifold. Then found the cause! The gasket wasn't squashed evenly at the edges of no.1 and no.6 inlet tracts because of a slight distortion in the flange. Pretty silly really I should have checked it after welding.... So as the gasket has settled it's started to leak, on boost isn't a problem because the turbo just works a bit harder to give 8psi in the manifold. When idling or part throttle the air leak causes a slight misfire because the mixtures wrong. DOH!

 

Not much but enough to cause an air leak!

 

Gasket not squashed down properly at no.6

 

Same on no.1.

 

My own silly fault, I should have checked it. Tops marks to Kev! Didn't you say I might have an air leak a while back???

 

I'll get the manifold skimmed flat and it'll be sorted. I'd also like to get a thermal gasket from somewhere, to try and stop some of the heat soak?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

My own silly fault, I should have checked it. Tops marks to Kev! Didn't you say I might have an air leak a while back???

 

I'll get the manifold skimmed flat and it'll be sorted. I'd also like to get a thermal gasket from somewhere, to try and stop some of the heat soak?

 

Don't worry about it Dave, we all make mistakes ;-) The main thing is you found it before it could have caused some damage.

 

I've had a few 'niggles' to sort with mine too, but it's done 5000 miles since being Turboed or 90 hours continuous driving according to the DTA, and to be fair, the car has just soldiered on regardless.

 

The weirdest niggle was the engine deciding to keep running with the ignition key out!

 

Long story, but if it wasn't for the fact the reverse lights flickered whilst Vince was working in the engine bay, we would never have found the cause. 3 wires inside a perfect looking outer casing, which was part of the car's original wiring, had slowly rubbed and fused themselves together over 13 years, eventually shorting so bad it was energizing all the relays on the fuseboard with the key out!!

 

As for the Gasket, I use one of those spacer gaskets made by New South Wales that Awesome GTI sell. Hard to say if it works or not, but intake temps do seem lower.

 

Got my Saab 360cc injectors in now and a Borla 2.5" exhaust and all seems well. I'm still on 8psi aswell mate and loving it. DTA is set to autotune, so I might just start playing with more boost now :-)

[CrazyDave 0]

Borla exhaust... not heard of that one before? I'll have to do a google search. Guess it's a proper 2.5" all the way through then?

 

Car wiring is just the strangest thing at times, earth faults are a real nightmare, but shorts in looms is pretty unusual. Nice to have a bit of luck to find it.

 

I've ordered a resin spacer through badger5.co.uk, it comes as a complete kit, longer screws etc.

 

The manifold has gone to a local machinist to be milled flat, so it should all be sorted in a few days.

 

More boost..... Kev, I'm having to re-learn how to drive my car to make the most out of 8psi!

 

But that's the best bit with VRT, just dial the boost up when you get bored! :)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Aye, it is indeed. Full bore over the axle too, but doesn't knock on the axle.

 

Let me know about Badger's spacer. Mine's been on and off a few times and getting a bit ropey, so I could do with a new one!

 

Hopefully things will be 100% when you get that manifold back on 8)

 

Yeah, going from a na VR to 8psi of turbo is quite a big change!

 

A few more psi just gives you a nice extra kick in 4th and 5th for overtaking / despatching tailgaters.

 

Time to fire up the old sequential injection and individual cylinder trimming me thinks. I want to replicate what OBD2 does and fire the rear bank with 5% or so more fuel to compensate for intake evaporation when hot idling.

[CrazyDave 0]

Right, manifold skimmed and back on with a thermal resin gasket. Running much much better off boost now. Cold started really well this morning, and drove nice all through warm up (a lot better than it's been in the last week).

 

The fuel mapping is a little rich now (due to the air leak), another job to sort out.

 

The resin gasket does reduce the inlet manifold temperature by about 20 degrees, but it still gets quite warm. When fitting the spacer the instructions say you have to file the alternator bracket for clearance of one of the studs, but mine was ok without. This is probably due to having the manifold flange skimmed by about 3mm? The gasket seems well made and uses o-rings to seal against the head and manifold, so it shouldn't leak.

 

I still think the short manifold affects the low speed running off boost or it may be the lowered compression or both. I'll spend a bit of time adjusting the fuel and ignition this weekend to try and get it sorted.

 

The last bit of refinement takes an age, but should make the car super smooth 8)

[chazrad 0]

Dave, Well done. Glad you got the leak sorted and it all back together. Looking forward to seeing the you and the car again on Monday. :D

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Sounds good, I'll ring badger 5 then and get one of these gaskets. 20 degrees is a big reduction, but yes, heat soak in traffic will still be a problem....mainly from being blasted with hot radiator air.

 

Yes, we have everything setup for a bad idle...... short runners (low gas speed), big injectors, standard coil pack and mechanical differences between the two banks.

 

I have seen HUGE idle improvements using Delphi "disc" injectors and MSD coils though.

 

Keep at it, rome wasn't built in a day!

[CazzaVR 0]

Amazing car, Dave. Really enjoyed the drive out in it- felt faster than my cousin's Carrera 4 8) Power delivery is fantastic and it sounds great!

 

Nice interior too :)

[CrazyDave 0]

Thanks Cazza, glad you enjoyed it! Not sure if it's quite that quick, but it's plenty for me (I do like to pootle about!) :wink:

 

I was asking Micheal about what he thought the suspension felt like... he reckoned it was a bit 'bouncy'. The Eibach springs are quite firm, but that may be why it puts the power down so well. The chassis doesn't feel like it's struggling at all. Think it might be a good idea to have a ride out in a few different suspensioned C's to get an idea of the differences.

 

Kev, has the MSD spark improved the idle quality? Looks like something I need to try. I'm running S3 platinum plugs at the moment which seemed better, but not perfect (sorry I'm a fussy bugger).

 

It feels like poor cylinder filling at low engine speeds to me, above about 2500 it clears and runs very well. I'm contemplating an idea I had quite a while ago of semi-short runners... might improve the off boost low speed running... but the packageing is very difficult as you know! If anybody reading this has visions of poor running VR Turbos, that's not the case, but just that I'm ultra critical of getting OEM quality running and extra power.

 

The lower section of a Schrick would do the job quite nicely...

 

With a custom made plenum chamber to give a side exit TB???

[Goldie 2]

If this car is a non runner as per the title ill eat my hat...

 

And yes, it is that quick, its brilliant, hats off for doing it all yourself...

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Dave, yes the idle has improved a lot with the MSDs, as has the off boost responsiveness. It's definitely worth doing as the difference is startling. The engine is smoother, stronger and more responsive everywhere in the rev range.

 

Nice idea with the side exit manifold using the Schrick! It'll certainly improve the cylinder filling at low rpms.

 

When I ran the OBD2 management on the first turbo lump, that had complete OE manners and tractibility, but it still idled roughly! I reckon it's doable if you smooth off the partitions in the rocker cover, thereby lowering it for better throttle access?

[ziderapple 0]

Thanks for the run out in the VRT Dave, awesome, if I wasnt so skint at the moment I think i would have come home and got striaght on the bay buying turbo bits! :lol:

 

I'm going to see how much power I can extract from the V9 before going turbo, may even go R32 with the V9, that'll show you!!

 

No really, hats off for doing all that work yourself.

[CrazyDave 0]

Thanks for the comments guys, getting a bit bogged down with cold starting and idle things at the minute and I keep forgetting that it does go rather well! If fact on the way to work this morning, I was mulling over the 'off idle' MegaSquirt settings whilst sat in the traffic through Worcester, I cleared the traffic and had a lorry to overtake, squeezed the throttle and an instant smile appeared on my face! Forgot all about idle settings for the rest of the journey :D :D :D .

 

Looks like MSD coils it is then Kev, I'll consult your thread for a shopping list.

 

zider, I've got to edit the photos on the front page cos the forum won't let me edit the thread title due to the pictures being to big. Another job for the list!

 

R32 with a V9 would be awesome! The R32 engine has loads more mid range torque than the 12V anyway, engine managment might be fun though. Emerald do a box that'll drive all the R32 engine stuff (they do supply the ecu's for Storm Developments cars).

[GVK 0]

Good to meet you last night at the Rubbadubz meet Dave, the turbo install on the C looks good! 8)

 

[CrazyDave 0]

GVK, good to meet you too! Didn't make this months meet due to work, will try and make the next one.

 

Been AGES since I posted any updates in here, so here goes.

 

Haven't been able to sum up the enthusiasm to get to the bottom of my running problems since the rather disapointing runs at inters.

 

Recent Coventry meet. If you haven't been to one yet keep an eye out for the next one, great fun.

 

Charge air cooling problems:

When sat idling, the inlet air temps climbed through 50+ degrees! Even with the charge cooler fan on. This was easy to fix. The VR front grill only has 1 of the 3 slots open, and the easy route for the air coming through is across the main rad. So I ducted the air from one half of the grill to the CC rad and opened 2 slots, and hey presto 20degrees off the inlet air temp.

 

1.8T charge air temperature sensor:

After sitting for a long time, the standard VR sensor heat soaks and then it take 10-20 seconds to read the actual air temperature. This caused a slight lean mixture. So I modified my inlet manifold to take a 1.8t sensor. Nice rapid temp readings and accurate fueling to compensate.

 

Misfires:

I had the normal VR Beru leads fitted, so they had to go. DubPower do a set of 10.8mm performance leads. The spark is much stronger with some decent leads, but I still have a miss. Strobe confirms this, I can see it missing ignition cycles.

 

Looks like the coilpack has given up. Time for a set of MSD's and a custom bracket.

 

Although I have looked at putting Golf V5 coil tops on, as they will fit in the space around the VR head?

 

I've also got a 70deg stat to fit, to try and get the overall temperatures down a bit. Not that my car runs hot, quite the opposite, when running it sits at 85-90 degrees. But I don't want it getting hot when sitting idling. So the first fan speed needs changing aswell.

 

Brake problems:

I fitted some Goodrich hoses a few weeks ago and discovered some rather dodgey solid pipes. Two broke off and one burst! I fixed all those, and then on the way to BVF. The brake compensator valve sprung a leak.

 

What a hideous job that was, 4-5 hours to get the old one off and 3 attempts at bleeding the brakes to get the pedal back. I ended up changing several of the solid lines so that I could feel confident they weren't going to give me any more problems.

[ziderapple 0]

Sounds like you had a right time of it with the brakes! Good work with the 1.8t temp sensor, do you think it would be a worthwhile upgrade for mine, running standard management?

[CrazyDave 0]

Sounds like you had a right time of it with the brakes! Good work with the 1.8t temp sensor, do you think it would be a worthwhile upgrade for mine, running standard management?

 

I've been running mine on standard Motronic for the last few days using the 1.8t sensor and it works a treat. Tracking of air temperature is much faster so the fueling will be more consistant.

 

Give it a try.

 

UPDATE, don't try it it's not happy. See below

[ziderapple 0]

:salute: Yes sir!

[CrazyDave 0]

Update on the 1.8t sensor and Motronic.

 

DON'T use it. Motronic doesn't accept the new sensor properly and keeps showing 75deg intake temps. This is the failed sensor default reading.

 

Sorry guys, standalone ecu's only.

[CrazyDave 0]

Not sure if anybodys interested but most of my Corrado related effort is going into this at the minute.

 

 

It's for modifiying Motronic sensor signals to allow engine mods to be used that would normally upset the ECU.

 

Mass air flow

Throttle Position

Exhaust Lambda

Engine Speed

+4 spare inputs

 

These will be intercepted into the above box. Then modified for certain conditions and sent on to Motronic.

 

In addition to the above:

4 analogue outputs.

Graphic LCD display for adjusting settings etc

 

 

So for me it'll allow changing of the MAF signal so that I can run a standard Motronic box, with a BEGI regulator, Tial dump valve, turbo etc and get perfect driving like a standard car. The ECU is completely standard, but the signals fed to it are modified to meet the new conditions.

 

Two of the conditions that I'm looking to adjust:

 

Accelerate up the road and change gear. The MAF reads correctly as the engine revs climb, but when the throttle closes the dump valve opens and releases all the boost (like an air leak). The MAF reading shoots right up, this over fuels and causes the ignition timing to be out for the actual condition the engine is in. The solution is to block the high MAF reading when the throttle closes suddenly. As the throttle closes, the MAF signal will be limited by a new map contained in the above box. The ECU will think it's running a normal engine and set the correct fuel and ignition timing.

 

Turbocharged engines like a little more part throttle fuel than NA. The ECU lambda sensor signal on early Motronic cars is narrow band, like a switch, rich or lean. With a wide band sensor fitted into the standard exhaust bung, the ecu can be tricked into richening the mixture a little at part throttle. Normally the ECU would try to get 14.8 AFR at idle and part throttle. Based on the throttle position the o2 signal can be changed so that Motronic thinks it's controlling to 14.8 but in fact its at 14.0 (or any other value).

 

 

Early days at the minute but I'll keep you all posted! It could even be used to eliminate the MAF altogether, and replace it with a MAP sensor.

[StormchargedVR6 0]

This looks very interesting dave, need something like this for mine.

 

Think you be on to something here.

 

My cold start and idle are a problem, and hunts really bad when hot at idle.

 

Keep us posted.

[CrazyDave 0]

Bit of an update:

 

I've been doing some experimenting with using a standard Motronic ECU to run my VRT. At this point the Megasquirt has been put to one side due to its lack of sequential injection.

 

This is what's fitted at the moment...

 

Standard OBDI ECU (Late VR CP model). Standard mapping.

Standard Injectors.

BEGI rising rate regulator.

Carbon cannister and vapour recovery valve fitted.

Breather connected.

ISV between post CC boost pipe and shortrunner.

Innovate LM-1 AFR meter.

Standard narrowband O2 sensor.

 

Inlet pipework:

 

Cone filter behind bumper at the side - straight pipe run through standard MAF housing - 3" to 4" transition pipe - Turbo - 2.25" Pipework - Tial 50mm BOV - Charge cooler - TB - Shortrunner Manifold (CrazyDave special :) ).

 

Exhaust:

 

Cast manifold - Turbo - 3" SS downpipe - narrow & wideband lambda - No cat - Jetex 2.5"

 

Setup the BEGI with a pressure gauge as per the instructions. Initial pressure set as per instructions. Slight further adjustment needed for NA to boost transition. Then a couple of turns on the gain valve whilst watching the AFR. Now set at 12:1 and pretty steady right across the boost range.

 

Now the above runs very well. But a few problems with the BOV during gear changes causing over fueling then cough when back on the gas (only slight). So some 'elastic trickery' called for!

 

I came up with a small box of electronics to intercept the MAF signal. This also has a MAP sensor connected to the inlet manfold. The MAP detects the condition just before MAF clipping occurs and filters it out, replacing the signal with a simulated NA engine throttle closed MAF signal.

 

It also needed a bit of filtering to stop something I noticed with a scope attached, I think it was low speed turbine disturbance of the MAF signal. The MAF signal had that 'wab wab wab' oscillation you can hear in the exhaust note? No problem for the signal processor.

 

TPS should say MAF in the above picture, I started with TPS but decided MAP would be better.

 

http://www.d2designs.vispa.com/videos/M4V00629.MP4

Sorry no reving action, couldn't reach the pedal while holding the camera :lol:

 

Anyway the result.... super smooth VRT running on standard Motronic ECU!

 

Gearchanging is now crisp, overfueling has gone, no popping and banging, behaves itself in all driving conditions. If I was being really fussy (which I am) it could do with a bit more timing down the bottom end, or maybe fuel?

 

Future plans:

Trim the narrow band sensor from the wideband sensor. The turbo setup could do with a bit more fuel on part throttle. I plan to trick the ECU into thinking it's running lean when it actually isn't by simulating a lean narrow band signal. This should make the idle a bit steadier, as Motronic trims the idle fueling very hard for emissions.

[Toad 0]

Dave. Reading that makes me moist.

 

Really like what you are doing there. Would have never even thought about having something like that to sort the signals. Would OBD2 be better, with your crazyfilter ™ or is OBD1 quite sufficient? I'm not a vr owner of any legnth of time, but I've been pretty happy with the way the OBD1 system runs the car.

[bcstudent 0]

Nice work. Wanna sell your Megasquirt?