oneohtwo's VR6 - New Engine!

[fendervg 29]

16 minutes ago, oneohtwo said:

Thanks everyone!

I did make it yep! I found a company called Easy Composites who do some very good tutorial videos and supply everything, which made it all look quite straightforward (because they're experts! 🤔) so thought I could give it ago. Turns out it's extremely unforgiving and mistakes were made. 

 When I initially budgeted things I thought it was reasonably affordable (not cheap by any means but not unattainable), but that didn't factor in the mistakes and having to buy extra materials, and a lot of consumables, so I don't think it's something to do on a budget. This one was my third attempt, and my second mould so it did rack up a bit. Fortunately I am lucky enough to have the resources so that I could carry on, but for a while I did wonder if I was just throwing good money after bad. 

Thanks! I don't think you need any particular skills or talent to do it, just a lot of patience and perseverance, plus a bit of technical knowledge. I started doing this last Feb... and as mentioned had to do two moulds, and three attempts at the final part so it was extremely trying at times.

I do now have a mould and when I started I partly had in mind that I could make some for others if it went well. However, given how stressful the whole thing was I am less keen 😂. I'm also in the process of moving house as well as trying to finish my rebuild so certainly not for a while. It's not just making the part, but positioning all the holes that is difficult, I've already missed a few a bit and had to enlarge them, tweak them here and there to get to fit - properly you'd make a template/jig, but I don't really have the facilities to do this. So I don't know. I may revisit this in future.

I did give this a lot of thought before setting out, and I came to the conclusion that it's not really part of the crash structure - as Sean says it's quite lightweight and only really supports the rad. The bumper member is I believe the main crash structure. It is a large rectangular section so will carry far more load than the rad support and spans between the chassis legs - that will be taking the majority of load in a crash and transferring it to the monocoque. The actual engine cross member supporting the engine is much beefier as well, so will do more, although I have a feeling that in a major accident the bolts securing onto the chassis legs may well shear so that it drops down. The bumper is locked into the chassis if this happens, so again seems to be doing most of the work - that said having looked at my bumper, it's pretty rotten, with some sizable holes in it... 😬

The carbon fibre piece should be about equivalent in strength and stiffness to the steel original, as they two materials have similar properties, give or take, and the recommendation is to make the carbon piece a similar thickness to the original part. It is actually possible to flex the steel piece by hand in places even though it feels weighty. 

Only area of concern is when the bumper bolts are removed and the crossmember is fixed to the rad support only via the single middle M8 bolt - I have done a rough calc based on the weight of the engine and some known properties of carbon fibre at the more conservative end of the scale (structural engineer by trade), and I see no reason why it shouldn't do the job like the steel one. However, that doesn't account for the vagaries of the production process, and I can't really test it to destruction to make sure - so just to be on the safe side I have had a couple of steel brackets fabricated to sit under the carbon fibre which should provide some additional support. Will always prop the engine anyway so should be fine.

 

 

 

Sounds like a lot of work! Fair play.

That's good that you have put a lot of thought and research into the structural integrity of it - seems like it should not be too great a concern. You could always use some extra support with a hoist or an additional jack to take some weight off when the bumper is removed.

[GrahamU 5]

5 hours ago, oneohtwo said:

Thanks everyone!

I did make it yep! I found a company called Easy Composites who do some very good tutorial videos and supply everything, which made it all look quite straightforward (because they're experts! 🤔) so thought I could give it ago. Turns out it's extremely unforgiving and mistakes were made. 

 When I initially budgeted things I thought it was reasonably affordable (not cheap by any means but not unattainable), but that didn't factor in the mistakes and having to buy extra materials, and a lot of consumables, so I don't think it's something to do on a budget. This one was my third attempt, and my second mould so it did rack up a bit. Fortunately I am lucky enough to have the resources so that I could carry on, but for a while I did wonder if I was just throwing good money after bad. 

Thanks! I don't think you need any particular skills or talent to do it, just a lot of patience and perseverance, plus a bit of technical knowledge. I started doing this last Feb... and as mentioned had to do two moulds, and three attempts at the final part so it was extremely trying at times.

I do now have a mould and when I started I partly had in mind that I could make some for others if it went well. However, given how stressful the whole thing was I am less keen 😂. I'm also in the process of moving house as well as trying to finish my rebuild so certainly not for a while. It's not just making the part, but positioning all the holes that is difficult, I've already missed a few a bit and had to enlarge them, tweak them here and there to get to fit - properly you'd make a template/jig, but I don't really have the facilities to do this. So I don't know. I may revisit this in future.

I did give this a lot of thought before setting out, and I came to the conclusion that it's not really part of the crash structure - as Sean says it's quite lightweight and only really supports the rad. The bumper member is I believe the main crash structure. It is a large rectangular section so will carry far more load than the rad support and spans between the chassis legs - that will be taking the majority of load in a crash and transferring it to the monocoque. The actual engine cross member supporting the engine is much beefier as well, so will do more, although I have a feeling that in a major accident the bolts securing onto the chassis legs may well shear so that it drops down. The bumper is locked into the chassis if this happens, so again seems to be doing most of the work - that said having looked at my bumper, it's pretty rotten, with some sizable holes in it... 😬

The carbon fibre piece should be about equivalent in strength and stiffness to the steel original, as they two materials have similar properties, give or take, and the recommendation is to make the carbon piece a similar thickness to the original part. It is actually possible to flex the steel piece by hand in places even though it feels weighty. 

Only area of concern is when the bumper bolts are removed and the crossmember is fixed to the rad support only via the single middle M8 bolt - I have done a rough calc based on the weight of the engine and some known properties of carbon fibre at the more conservative end of the scale (structural engineer by trade), and I see no reason why it shouldn't do the job like the steel one. However, that doesn't account for the vagaries of the production process, and I can't really test it to destruction to make sure - so just to be on the safe side I have had a couple of steel brackets fabricated to sit under the carbon fibre which should provide some additional support. Will always prop the engine anyway so should be fine.

 

 

 

 

At work we have a carbon shop that was fully certified to make aero parts and I have suggested we make some panels many times but its always been rejected by management (they know best 🤦‍♂️) they have now sold the huge autoclave we had and bought a couple of small ones the size of an domestic oven because we only make steering wheels now (check out the Aston Vulcan, Valkyrie, BMW GT4, Porsche GT3, 4, AML GT3 to name a few 😉 And yes, I do have a Porsche wheel that I keep thinking about fitting)

I wish we still had the big autoclave so I could get the guys to make a few bits and pieces like this

[fla 9]

that really is a fabulous creation - your efforts have really been worth it.  One less thing to worry about now

[oneohtwo 8]

Yes indeed! Hopefully can crack on with the rebuild now!

Shame they got rid of the autoclave - that does sound the best way of doing it, with prepreg carbon . I did it with a vacuum infusion method as surprisingly I don't have an autoclave in my garage! Just making steering wheels seems very niche? What does the rest of the company produce?

I made a mistake when I said the carbon has similar strength and stiffness to steel. Its a bit more complex than that as they behave differently. Ultimately tensile (and so bending) strength should be higher. Shear strength is less (as lot is the resin component of this), and stiffness is also less. I made the fixing areas at the sides thicker than the steel original so that should be fine, and most of the stiffness is derived from the shape of the section, apart from the lower lip.

Edited January 22, 2021 by oneohtwo

[1xshaunx1 27]

It looks the nuts. I think it’ll be strong enough as long as you don’t fire it up or drive it without the bumper irons bolted through it

[ABV-VR6 12]

That carbon part is totally amazing, I'm impressed! I really like the carbon fiber look, it's a nice touch.
I'm thinking of getting my alternator powder coated, was it straight forward when you pulled your apart?
Keep up the amazing work! Cheers

[oneohtwo 8]

On 12/14/2020 at 9:59 AM, 1xshaunx1 said:

It looks the nuts. I think it’ll be strong enough as long as you don’t fire it up or drive it without the bumper irons bolted through it

Yeah, It's quite difficult with carbon fibre because strength and stiffness all depends on the thread direction. For instance the stiffness is similar to steel, but really that is just the carbon fibres themselves, when you add in the resin being 40% or so of it, it drops to about half, and then if half the fibres are running the other direction (with the twill weave) it may half again. From the checks I have done it should be fine, but I will keep the engine propped, which I would have done anyway with the original. 

On 12/14/2020 at 6:44 PM, ABV-VR6 said:

That carbon part is totally amazing, I'm impressed! I really like the carbon fiber look, it's a nice touch.
I'm thinking of getting my alternator powder coated, was it straight forward when you pulled your apart?
Keep up the amazing work! Cheers

Thanks! I didn't pull the alternator apart so I couldn't tell you I'm afraid! I sent it off to a company to do the refurb and they did all the internals. They sandblasted the cage back to clean metal - when I got it back I just masked off all the holes to paint it.

 

[oneohtwo 8]

There's always bloody something isn't there! One of bolts for the transmission mount where it attaches to the subframe has stripped it's thread. I can't get in there drill out the hole, so all I can think is to get a longer bolt and add another nut on the end...

 

[1xshaunx1 27]

3 minutes ago, oneohtwo said:

There's always bloody something isn't there! One of bolts for the transmission mount where it attaches to the subframe has stripped it's thread. I can't get in there drill out the hole, so all I can think is to get a longer bolt and add another nut on the end...

 

Unfortunately, yes, always 

[oneohtwo 8]

Yup. if it's the one thing I have learnt more than any other throughout this build...

Anyway, the thing won't undo now, oddly. I can't get it back out so there's not much to be done. Hopefully I'll never have to remove the engine mounts again so I can just forget about it.

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by oneohtwo

[oneohtwo 8]

Momentous day today... after a a year and a month on the stand the engine is back in the bay!

My word, you realise it is a tight fit in the bay when you try and get it in. Was a job and a half, a good 2 hours or so of wrestling it in. Getting it over the cross member wasn't too bad, but for an absolute age I couldn't align it on the mounts. The exhaust downpipes hanging down get in the way nicely as well. Will have to assess the damage in the morning, but big relief to get that back in before the end of the year.

Getting the gearbox on went fairly smoothly:

Anyway, can sit back and enjoy Christmas now, the fun part of bolting things back on can begin in the new year!

[Cressa 43]

Well done. That engine looks super clean and must have involved sooo much time and effort.

Jealous

[1xshaunx1 27]

Well done

nearly there. So close 

[GrahamU 5]

All coming together nicely

[ABV-VR6 12]

Yes, you sure can sit back and enjoy Christmas now, well deserved! It's coming up so nicely, well done. Did you install the engine just by yourself? Thanks for the precision on the alternator, I may just mask and paint it as well. Take care, cheers!
 

[oneohtwo 8]

Thanks all! The gearbox was certainly many tedious hours spent on the floor with a variety of wire wheels... worth it in the end though. Block and head were largely Stealth's work.

Had some help from the gf guiding it over the crossmember, but then she had to continue working so I was wrestling with it by myself to get it on the mounts. It seems you need a precise alignment of the crane, leveller, planets etc... to get it in. And then a bit of brute force. Few bits of paint scrapped off here and there which is annoying, but I think should be fixable in-situ. Shame to spoil the hard work!

Knocked up a little stainless steel bracket to support the belt pulley splashguard as well:

Wasn't going to bother as initially I thought it'd be too much hassle, but then seeing how close the guard is to the pulleys I thought best not to have it flapping around, and it was fairly straightforward in the end. Of course, had to make some adjustments after it was attached to get it around the crossmember. Turns out the cut out on the original is there for a reason!

The rad support itself is noticeably a lot less stiff than the steel original once on the car. A little annoying in that I was following professional advice, but if I'd known a bit more I may have made it a thicker. Although having said that, it is only the front lip where it clips to the bumper that has a lot of flex and once it is all clipped in should be stiff enough. It definitely seems strong enough with the cross member bolted on. Took my weight OK on the engine mount in a not very scientific test, without any deflection though, and I am probably not too far off the load on that front mount. I think the engine all in weighs about 200 kg, hard to know the distribution but I suspect at least half is on the front mount, and I am 85kg or so. 

I think I will use one of the failed attempts as a test bed and do some load testing if I get a chance, just to see what ball park we are in.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by oneohtwo

[oneohtwo 8]

Bit more progress on the rebuild over the last few weeks after I wasn't able to get on it in January. Connected up the driveshafts which was a tricky job, had to jack the engine up at the gearbox end as the shaft had dropped down and it doesn't clear the gearbox and subframe which was a pain!

Gear linkages all connected up, and the slave cylinder back on, oil filter and ancillary bracket on:

Starter in - went for the newer Vr5 one, found a fairly cheap genuine Bosch (alledgedly, it had the correct tag) reconditioned one on ebay. Also refurbed alternator, oil cooler and bolted down the cam cover. I had treated myself to an alloy crack pipe from ECS earlier in the year in a moment of madness so fitted that and the thermostat housing I'd had sat on the shelf for a few years from when I last changed the radiator. Not as old as the thermostat I've had about 10 years, when I first put a new rad in. Could never get a siezed bolt out so had to leave it all this time. Felt good to finally put it in!

And finally got the lower intake manifold and fuel rail on.

I painted the intake in a crackle grey which I quite liked and intended to do the upper manifold in his as well but couldn't get any sort of good finish with the paint so abandoned that for something else. 

Got to sort all the wiring out as well. All connectors are labelled so no issues connecting it, but it doesn't seem to be running in the right place. Some areas don't reach and others there's too much slack. I took loads of photos but apparently not enough... 

 

 

[1xshaunx1 27]

Good progress there matey. 
have you considered how old is the slave cylinder you put back on, can be a pain later if that goes 😉

[oneohtwo 8]

Arghhh, what have you done! Now I am looking at slave cylinders and they're not horrendously expensive, and still available from good brands... Brembo, TRW, Bosch, Sachs and LUK all available from £30-£80.

It's probably going to happen. I need to remove the existing again because the thread has partially stripped on one bolt. Got some thread repair for that, so may as well swap out the cylinder now as well.

[fla 9]

On 2/23/2021 at 1:49 PM, oneohtwo said:

Bit more progress on the rebuild over the last few weeks after I wasn't able to get on it in January. Connected up the driveshafts which was a tricky job, had to jack the engine up at the gearbox end as the shaft had dropped down and it doesn't clear the gearbox and subframe which was a pain!

Gear linkages all connected up, and the slave cylinder back on, oil filter and ancillary bracket on:

Starter in - went for the newer Vr5 one, found a fairly cheap genuine Bosch (alledgedly, it had the correct tag) reconditioned one on ebay. Also refurbed alternator, oil cooler and bolted down the cam cover. I had treated myself to an alloy crack pipe from ECS earlier in the year in a moment of madness so fitted that and the thermostat housing I'd had sat on the shelf for a few years from when I last changed the radiator. Not as old as the thermostat I've had about 10 years, when I first put a new rad in. Could never get a siezed bolt out so had to leave it all this time. Felt good to finally put it in!

And finally got the lower intake manifold and fuel rail on.

I painted the intake in a crackle grey which I quite liked and intended to do the upper manifold in his as well but couldn't get any sort of good finish with the paint so abandoned that for something else. 

Got to sort all the wiring out as well. All connectors are labelled so no issues connecting it, but it doesn't seem to be running in the right place. Some areas don't reach and others there's too much slack. I took loads of photos but apparently not enough... 

 

 

what a magnificent engine bay!

[Cressa 43]

On 2/23/2021 at 3:47 PM, 1xshaunx1 said:

Good progress there matey. 
have you considered how old is the slave cylinder you put back on, can be a pain later if that goes 😉

😂🤣 so true  and that engine bay is beautiful.  Well done in making me want that. Looks superb  👀

[oneohtwo 8]

Right, I've done it. Bought a new slave cylinder. 

Thanks all, it does feel like the hard work cleaning and painting everything is worth it now!

[1xshaunx1 27]

You should be proud as punch matey it looks mint

[GrahamU 5]

that looks great

[oneohtwo 8]

Thanks!

Fitted the fuel lines I got from Hel. They really did a top number - there was a bit of confusion over whether they could do a hoses for the VR6, initially saying they could, but then couldn't when I sent the originals over because they are the pre-formed into shapes. So instead they sent two lengths of hoses plus connectors for free to make up for it. Fitted them and the have all gone on OK, and look smart:

Certainly an option if VW originals can't be sourced. The third clip attached to the intake mani will help keep them all neat and together as well.

Also think I have sorted the stripped thread on the slave cylinder bolt hole. Used Loctite thread repair:

Form-A-Thread® Stripped Thread Repair Kit - 4.8-ml. syringe form-a-thread stripped th: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

Seems to have worked and the bolt is good and tight in there. Seems like a useful product to have if anyone is in a similar situation. Remains to be seen how well it will torque up, but might not go full torque on it just in case. Otherwise, I don't think I have any other options - can't get in there to drill the thread out for helicoil.