Slimline fans -wiring

[ABV-VR6 12]

Sorry for some reason I though I replied to this! Thank you oneohtwo for offering the cad file, I may stick with what I have purchased, I'll wait to see the quality once I get the shroud and will decide from there. I thinking I could keep the shroud, upgrade to better fans and make my loom. Price difference is not that bad between straight and curved blades. 

Then I would like to make the wiring loom like the phenix one, straight from the battery, 2 speeds, eliminate the oem fan module... 

Cheers! 

[1xshaunx1 27]

I’ve been thinking about after run on the phenix set up. 
The fan/fans will come on but the auxiliary water pump won’t. You’ll have to switch that on when the fans come on too by running another power wire to the pump maybe from one of the fan relays as they are 40 amp. 

[ABV-VR6 12]

I know, I've been thinking about it too... I actually emailed him last week about this but hasn't come back to me yet... 

You're solution to fix the issue is quite straightforward and it makes sense. I'll probably ended up doing it this way. 

Cheers! 

[ABV-VR6 12]

I ended up buying the Phenix shroud and loom and sourced 2 Spal curved blade fans locally, it was more affordable for me this way. That was in the summer following conversations and advice. Now it's decision, decision! I don't know what to do so I'm speaking out loud sharing the debate I have with myself in case someone could help me to make a better informed decision.

Option one: I scrap the Phenix loom, wire it off the original loom (Humble Mechanic has a really good video on how to do this properly). Advantages are it's straight forward, everything stays functioning the same way including the after run. But the inconveniences are that you get to keep FCM (NLA here in Canada) and I'm not a huge fan of aftermarket ones plus deleting the FCM is definately tempting as I find it personally of an eye sore in the engine bay.   

Option two: I hook up the system with the Phenix loom which is extremely well made. The advantages are that the system would be stand alone with all new wiring (OEM one was burned kind of scary) and it comes with new relays and the FCM can be deleted and that's huge. Now for the inconveniences though, the after run pump won't work anymore and I don't know how to wire it up. Noah at Phenix told me there's no problem at all running without it (he does without on his Corrado) but I would kind of prefer to have it working plus I have a brand new one... I read those 4 pages again before posting, there's a nice schematic on page one that contain 3 relays (the 3rd one being fed from the second fan to actuate the after run) or what Shaun pointed out in his last comment, something could be rigged from the second relay straight to the after run. 

All comments would be appreciated! Cheers

[oneohtwo 8]

 I quite like the idea of deleting the FCM, agree it is a bit of an eyesore stuck in the middle there, and adds clutter to an already cluttered bay. Cutting down some of the wiring wouldn't be amiss either. I can't really help on wiring up the aux water pump, but kinda agree it would be nicer to keep it, even though everything seems fine without it. 

I had a look at the HM video on the wiring, and if it is the same one you refer to he seems to have fan 1 come on for temp 1 then fan 2 for temp 2 and 3, but he didn't seem to include any resistors as the original circuit so they'd be running full chat from the get go as far as I can see? I can't see it being a major issue, other than the fans may wear out quicker, and be noisier, but if you wanted to replicate the OEM function exactly, the write up and wiring diagram I posted on page 2 (about halfway down) does this. The only thing I don't really like about it is mounting the resistors is a pain, so the install isn't the neatest.

[ABV-VR6 12]

4 hours ago, oneohtwo said:

 I quite like the idea of deleting the FCM, agree it is a bit of an eyesore stuck in the middle there, and adds clutter to an already cluttered bay. Cutting down some of the wiring wouldn't be amiss either. I can't really help on wiring up the aux water pump, but kinda agree it would be nicer to keep it, even though everything seems fine without it. 

I had a look at the HM video on the wiring, and if it is the same one you refer to he seems to have fan 1 come on for temp 1 then fan 2 for temp 2 and 3, but he didn't seem to include any resistors as the original circuit so they'd be running full chat from the get go as far as I can see? I can't see it being a major issue, other than the fans may wear out quicker, and be noisier, but if you wanted to replicate the OEM function exactly, the write up and wiring diagram I posted on page 2 (about halfway down) does this. The only thing I don't really like about it is mounting the resistors is a pain, so the install isn't the neatest.

Thanks for joining the conversation. I'm assuming you have deleted the after-run pump then, and no issues?

Since I've put that out there, I've been thinking, talking to people, watched videos. I want to get to the bottom of this and make it happen. FCM is an eye sore, it's NLA, the wiring is very prone to overheating (I have 3 looms and all of them the connector is burned) and there's a lot of wiring that can go away by deleting it. There's two old school way the Corrado is wired that is dangerous (FCM and headlights) which I both want to be stand alone straight from the battery. It's easy to buy a headlight loom, Spoonfed make a nice one per example. But so far no company as offered the ultimate wiring loom for the radiator. https://www.spoonfedtuning.com/collections/electrical-harnesses/products/corrado-ecode-relay-wiring-harness

I completely dismantled the Phenix loom that came up with the rad fan shroud. I made the drawing on graph paper. It's basic and well made. Speed one = 1 fan and speed two = 2 fans. All with relays, temperature on and off from the thermo switch and completely stand alone with no resistors. FCM can go away with this. This is what I don't like: The fans will start full blast. The fans will kick on and off frequently. The after-run pump won't work anymore.

This is what I want from the fans:
1) No resistors. The less the better. I think it can be accomplished by setting the fans in series instead of parallel. More details on this at point 2.

2) Two speeds and both working at all time so you get even cooling on the rad. This also prevent premature failure of the fan like mentioned by oneohtwo.This can be fixed along with point #1 above by hooking them up in series. I requires 2 relays (4 pins) and that's it, no resistors. Here is a very good explanation on how to do this. If you want to skip the details and just see both fans in action at med speed and high speed go to the 9 minutes mark and you'll be amazed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAKnMl1tK8g&t=631s

3) I DON'T want the fans to kick on/off every minute. That's the issue when relays are operated via the thermo switch on the rad. The fans kick on & off too often and that gets annoying. But there is a way to fix this and it's by installing a Hella timer relay SH3-996-152-131 which are 5 pins relay that can be adjusted up to about 10 minutes. SO! These would fix the on/off issue, set the relay to about 2 minutes I've been told and you're done, problem fixed. I'm assuming both relays would need to be replaced by thess timer ones. This is a part I'm still working on understand and I'm having a discussion at the moment with someone who did this. I also messaged the original wiring diagram author on page one DASBEAST3.0 on Vortex but last time he visited the forum it was 4 months ago so I don't know when he'll get back to me.

4)  I want the after-run pump to be working either on speed 2 and after shut off or only at shut off. I think OEM setting is only at shut off? I think this can only work with the addition of a third relay ( 5 pins) and the diagram from DASBEAST is probably the right thing to follow. I'm just not good enough yet to understand WHEN the after-run pump is designed to kick in his diagram.

Here it is, all puzzle pieces are on the table. Just a matter of putting together the puzzle. I think the guy from youtube and his 2 speeds wiring combined with relay timers and the after-run pump hooked up would give the ultimate wiring loom for the rad. Just like OEM but without the clutter and the fire hazard. I'll continue my quest until I find how to make it happen even if I have to pay someone to confirm it will work the way I want it to be. Cheers

 

[1xshaunx1 27]

In the last diagram, to me it looks like the pump only works when the second fan kicks in. 
I’d stay away from the fan circuit other than for signals from the thermo switch, if something goes wrong and a fuse goes to one or both fans you loose the pump too. 
 

Pretty sure the auxiliary pump runs whenever the ignition is on or when the fans come on, on after run, ignition off. That’s how I’d want it to work anyway 

Pin 86
If I were doing it I’d use the four pin really and use signals from

ignition live

Therm switch low

Therm switch high

I would put simple diodes inline on each to stop them bleeding into each other.

pin 85 - ground
I would take a fused supply from the battery for pin 30.
 

pin 87 - aux pump.

Should work great 😊 

[Dox 22]

Point 3, the set up is for engine temp regulation, denying the fans running with a timer is wrong IMO, function should always rule over form (vanity).

 

Imagine climbing a steep hill, throttle burried and temps climbing and the fans waiting 2 - 10 mins before assisting to cool the engine down?

[ABV-VR6 12]

8 hours ago, 1xshaunx1 said:

In the last diagram, to me it looks like the pump only works when the second fan kicks in. 
I’d stay away from the fan circuit other than for signals from the thermo switch, if something goes wrong and a fuse goes to one or both fans you loose the pump too. 
 

Pretty sure the auxiliary pump runs whenever the ignition is on or when the fans come on, on after run, ignition off. That’s how I’d want it to work anyway 

Pin 86
If I were doing it I’d use the four pin really and use signals from

ignition live

Therm switch low

Therm switch high

I would put simple diodes inline on each to stop them bleeding into each other.

pin 85 - ground
I would take a fused supply from the battery for pin 30.
 

pin 87 - aux pump.

Should work great 😊 

Thanks mate. I agree with you, the way the after-run comes in with the last diagram is not enough cycling and also rely on the fan wiring. The guy who did it mentioned he was not happy with the way he did it and he was supposed to post an alternative but never did... That's why I contacted him, so far nothing. 

Your solution for the auxiliary pump is definitely a way to make it happen. I just wish there was a way to do it without a whole bunch of wires, diodes etc... I just had a chat with a guy here, he's using the after-run relay that came factory on G60. I'll look more into it. What he didn't like is that it comes on & off too frequently and he installed a timer relay on it to fix this.

I guess I can draw a conclusion that the auxiliary pump should not be wired with the fans. Now I know I need 2 systems to eliminate the FCM. Question is if it's worth it to delete or not at this point? It's the auxiliary pump that creates the "problem" and unfortunately half deleted it and say it's totally fine and the other say that they would never delete it, it was there for a reason etc... Which side of the fence to choose? 

[ABV-VR6 12]

8 hours ago, Dox said:

Point 3, the set up is for engine temp regulation, denying the fans running with a timer is wrong IMO, function should always rule over form (vanity).

 

Imagine climbing a steep hill, throttle burried and temps climbing and the fans waiting 2 - 10 mins before assisting to cool the engine down?

I agree with you. But the way I saw this was when you reach the temperature, instead of starting the fan for 45 seconds and shut down and repeat the cycle again 20 seconds later when you climb that long and steep hill. The timer relay the way I saw it was not to pause the fan for 2 minutes but to make them work for at least 2 minutes. This, to minimize the frequency of the fans to kick on and off. 

That said, I miss understood and got clarification from someone I talked too this morning. He did not put a timer relay on the fans but on the auxiliary pump. 

I think if the fans where set-up lime that guy on YouTube with first speed (both fans at half speed) and second speed (both fans full speed) it should be somewhat alright. I've been told the draw a lot of amps on start-up and if they were set to only half at the first speed, that should help?

[oneohtwo 8]

I didn't delete the aux pup, mine is essentially OEM, so couldn't tell you what it is like without it. From what I know it:

1) Comes on pre-ignition

2) Runs after shutdown

3) Comes on with Speed 2/3 (Unsure on this one)

I can't really see what difference not having it for point 1 makes, I don't entirely see the purpose of the pump coming on for this. Point 2 makes a bit of sense to help get rid of some of the heat in the block, although I don't fully understand this, as once the engine is off it shouldn't be getting hotter! Although perhaps this is more to eliminate residual hotspots -  so not having the pump may place more stresses on the block, head, etc...

Point 3, if true, must be there to give a boost to the main pump and help circulate coolant faster and get more heat away from the block, I guess this could be important as the main pump won't be at full speed if just sat idling in traffic. I think on balance I would probably rather have it... it gets hot under there so anything that helps with that can only be a good thing.

The fan spec should include the current draw, if you have a look at those. The Comex fans I had, had a maximum draw of 8.1A. 

 

[1xshaunx1 27]

Diodes can be simple 

[ABV-VR6 12]

1 hour ago, oneohtwo said:

I didn't delete the aux pup, mine is essentially OEM, so couldn't tell you what it is like without it. From what I know it:

1) Comes on pre-ignition

2) Runs after shutdown

3) Comes on with Speed 2/3 (Unsure on this one)

I can't really see what difference not having it for point 1 makes, I don't entirely see the purpose of the pump coming on for this. Point 2 makes a bit of sense to help get rid of some of the heat in the block, although I don't fully understand this, as once the engine is off it shouldn't be getting hotter! Although perhaps this is more to eliminate residual hotspots -  so not having the pump may place more stresses on the block, head, etc...

Point 3, if true, must be there to give a boost to the main pump and help circulate coolant faster and get more heat away from the block, I guess this could be important as the main pump won't be at full speed if just sat idling in traffic. I think on balance I would probably rather have it... it gets hot under there so anything that helps with that can only be a good thing.

The fan spec should include the current draw, if you have a look at those. The Comex fans I had, had a maximum draw of 8.1A. 

 

I agree with you and I would like to have it running when the engine is turned off for a certain amount of time ( to circulate the hottest coolant out of the head) and as well when second speed kicks in because I'm assuming if there's a need for the fans to kick in second it's because it's getting pretty hot in the system. 

[ABV-VR6 12]

1 hour ago, 1xshaunx1 said:

Diodes can be simple 

Well Shaun you proved me wrong, that is definitely simple and I like that they look weatherproof too. 

Is your after-run still hooked up in your set-up? 

I will work on a diagram based from the gut on YouTube tonight and I think I'll hook up the after-run like you said. Me I would like it not to come on at ignition but only on second speed and after-run. So I would have to install a relay one terminal for power, one fir ground, one from the high speed on thermo switch but what about the after-run? And for it to start after shut down and for a certain amount of time, timer relay? Thanks for your help mate

[1xshaunx1 27]

I’ve kept my FCM to bring my fans on and aux pump as standard when required. One fan speed one, 2 fans on for speed two and the black plug disconnected so it doesn’t turn everything off if I get a bit hot. 

[ABV-VR6 12]

Alright, just a minor update on my thinking process I guess..
My vision of a stand alone system is not as simple as I thought it would be so I'm beginning to think that I won't reinvent the wheel and just keep the damn FCM. Can't find a new OEM one but I found a new Meyle branded one and usually they make pretty decent parts. If it wasn't of the after-run pump built in the FCM, I would scrap all of it... I don't care to have quicker hot air in the cabin since the car will be a summer car exclusive but I don't want distortions in the head due to pooling of hot coolant...
Looking at those videos from Charles the humble mechanic, it's as simple as it gets when you keep the FCM to wire up two electric fans. Although, I'm wondering if I should add an 30A inline fuse in the power line?
How to wire it theory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeSiN2FNZoM&t=152s
How to do the job: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1NKKxnHPcw&t=83s

Some of my recent thinking:
-The G60 didn't have an after-run built in it was actuated via a relay and a sensor. I though of retrofitting this into a VR6 but that sensor is apparently number cause for draining batteries on top of being NLA plus I could not screw it on anywhere so no go...
-I bought a brand new OEM FCM non A/C for Corrado/MK3/B4, seller's only asking $10! I ordered that a long time ago since I was planning and did removed the A/C from the car, I though this would be more genuine to my delete and remove the third speed which only came on A/C and automatic models. The plug from the wiring loom won't connect to it unfortunately as "I think" this was on pre-facelift VR6 or OBD2. But what surprises me is there's no 10 pins connector at all, only the 4 standards pins for the fans. This is speculations but either the seller made a mistake and this is for OBD2 or the missing 10 pins connector is exclusively to manage the A/C and auxiliary pump and after-run. Which would mean that on a non A/C VR6 car there is a factory "stand alone" wiring just for the auxiliary/after-run pump since it was not incorporated in the FCM.
https://www.cascadegerman.com/product/fan-control-module-mk3-b4-no-a-c/

More thoughts that leads to more questions... Like I said I'm just sharing my thoughts and I'll stick to the damn FCM 😉
Cheers!

 

[1xshaunx1 27]

I don’t understand why you’ve changed your mind. I think a combination of your in series speed one idea and doing what I said for the aux pump would be a winner. I was thinking of doing it, not yet though. 

[ABV-VR6 12]

8 hours ago, 1xshaunx1 said:

I don’t understand why you’ve changed your mind. I think a combination of your in series speed one idea and doing what I said for the aux pump would be a winner. I was thinking of doing it, not yet though. 

I don't know mate, I guess in all honesty and bluntly I tend to overthink things making it harder and I'm wondering if this is another one of those projects? It's just a FCM under a bonnet... That and also I'm ok to replicate things but not smart enough to fully understand what I'm doing with car electrical (this is my first experience) therefore doubting and I need this to be 100%. The entire loom needs to be made and I don't know the cost of it yet but probably higher than just a FCM at $40...

The latest schematics based on the guy from YouTube (I like both fans at all time with speed 1 going half the speed and speed 2 is full blast) and the schematic of your auxiliary pump the way I understand what you tried to explain me. I would personally hook up only low & high (don't need it when starting the car I think) but I don't see or understand how this would make it work on after-run mode for 10 minutes like the oem FCM does? I think this is the the most important part about that pump. Timer relay? Don't know! 

Cheers JF 

[1xshaunx1 27]

Your drawing for the pump looks good to me. Hook a fan up on the bench to test it. 

[1xshaunx1 27]

On your fan drawing I can’t see how the relay triggers. Should it be + on thermo going to the battery I think and 86 or is it 85 to ground. I’ll have a look at the weekend 

[ABV-VR6 12]

45 minutes ago, 1xshaunx1 said:

On your fan drawing I can’t see how the relay triggers. Should it be + on thermo going to the battery I think and 86 or is it 85 to ground. I’ll have a look at the weekend 

Thanks mate, that's what I'm saying, I'm not good enough to understand /trouble shoot it. 

This is a screen shot of his set-up, worked amazing 2 fans at all time with 2 speeds. Problem is that he made it from two temperature sensors and wired straight from the battery. My drawing is my understanding of this but wired to the thermo switch instead of his 2 sensors and battery. 

 

[1xshaunx1 27]

I wouldn’t advise looking at wiring diagrams you don’t understand just before you go to bed. But I’ve woken up understanding what you were trying to do. 
Ignore my last post it’s completely wrong.  
You through me off the scent a bit with the thermo fuse positive. 
 He’s using the switches as ground so where you show a positive in your drawing on thermo fuse should be ground/negative. He’s doing it completely opposite to me. 
so using his drawing you screenshot, for the aux pump signals you’ll have to use pin  87 off of the 4 pin relays because of the constant ignition live you are using on the aux pump relay trigger, it’s the same but different. 

[1xshaunx1 27]

I’ll have another look when I finish work. 

[Cressa 43]

I've been enjoying reading this. All I can say is the aux. Pump runs constantly with ignition live in the OEM set up and definitely needs it. 

When I have been out in my car I like to pop the bonnet and then leave the ignition on for a few minutes just to continue circulating all of that heat. 

I have never noticed if the pump comes on with over run fans, so may try testing it today. Just for knowledge ....

Good luck with what you are doing 👍

[ABV-VR6 12]

I'm going to bed guys, it's amazing to have you around to chat. I'll be in touch tomorrow. Thanks for everything, cheers