G60 X-flow - Anyone completed one of these yet ?

[rmn 0]

my 2 cents as i said Leon, opinions differ, but i would consider a contraflow setup neater.

Regarding the 16vg60 alternator, i did indeed mean the right hand drive one, if we used the left hand deive one you have massive belt slip and as you pointed out it will hit the servo :lol:

 

Plus isnt that left hand drive :lol:

[mk1charger 0]

Interesting tread this,

 

Me and my brother have built a number of G60 engines in the past and we have found if using a VW 8V head then the item from a 1.8 Mk1 gti has produced the best results when fitted with larger exhaust valves, bigger cam and also some serious porting.

 

We have been using "Eurospec" items in the past 7 years and as mentioned earlier have produced more than 270bhp with these fitted. 300 is possible but you lose driveability and also there are the limitatin with the standard G60 management although this can be overcome to a point by omitting certain sensors from the program itself.

 

I for one can't wait to see what Darrens head produces with a good cam and suitable valves, should get some monster power, and like Darren said it'll all look OEM which helps so much by not having to manufacture special brackets and the like.

 

I've currently built by last G60 motor, this one being a 16v version so I'll have to how it turns out.

 

Good work guys, nice to see the "G" stronger than ever.

 

Jat

[GazzaG60 0]

The factory look isn't an issue to me its all about getting more power out of it. id rather spend a couple of grand on a bespoke setup than half that just improving on what i have. its known a 16vt can produce in excess of 500hp a G60 runs out at around 300. valves certainly help drivability. the charger revving its nuts off on the motorway is the bit that really made my mind up.

[mk1charger 0]

I only ran a 70mm pulley on the 274bhp setup and thats the size we have always used, no point going to small since the "bottleneck" top end can't flow any more.

 

I see your point with power, a G60 will never produce the power a turbo could but then it depends on what type of power delivery you want and also if you perfer G60 in the frst place.

 

What I meant with a OEM look is that it would be bolt on and thats it. No more mods to make or buy, a turbo 16v would never look OEM since VW never made one.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

a turbo 16v would never look OEM since VW never made one.

 

The Turbo Technics 16V engine looks fairly OEM to me, despite VW not actually making a turbo'd 16V. Only the small IC adjacent to the radiator and a different throttle elbow really give the game away at first glance. If you delve a bit deeper then obviously you'll see the T25 perched at the back and some pipework underneath, but the engine itself is still OEM externally..... unlike all these crazy 400+hp S2 based 16V Turbos with chopped short running intakes etc etc.

 

I love the way the Stealth improved TT 16V drives....barely any lag and really smooth through the range and the same to maintain and run as a N/A 16v....you just spend more on fuel and tyres!

 

274bhp from a G60 is phenomenal. I always thought they're were much too restrictive but Jereon Dik proved over 300 possible 10 years ago I suppose....

 

Good work!

[Yandards 0]

274bhp from a G60 is phenomenal. I always thought they're were much too restrictive but Jereon Dik proved over 300 possible 10 years ago I suppose....

 

In that 10 years C&C milling has gone from being a technology only available to the likes of F1 and the military to fairly commenplace. As such it is now possibly to get a more exact tolerance on any head work carried out; I would expect to see a modified G60 capable of producing a healthy amount above 300 now.

 

Would love to see a charger manufactured on a C&C, you could really wind the tolerances up, unlike the original casting.

[junkie 0]

At the end of the day, how much power can you realistically put through a FWD setup anyhow?

 

Well currently running 310bhp and 305lb/ft of torque and very tractable at 1.45bar on 8 valve G60 head although enlarged valves and no traction control.

[GazzaG60 0]

274 is a great figure. way way more than me n my G60 isn't any good at all in the wet n being right next to the penines in oldham it pisses down loads. i love my G60 its been super but i want more revs and better flow up top. im a fair bit down the the crazy route kev mentioned

[Henny 0]

GazzaG60, I don't live that far away from you, so I know what you mean about the state of the roads! However, with the addition of an LSD the 250ish BHP that my engine's kicking out is pretty managable... especially so when I had the suspension set up properly in J-DUB... 8)

 

Power is NOTHING without control (there's an advert in there, I'm sure! :lol: ) If you've not got your suspension setup properly and haven't sorted out your transmission (LSD etc) you'll struggle to get over 200bhp onto the tarmac... :| however if you've got it all set up properly, who knows what the top BHP you can use is? 8)

[rmn 0]

Henny hit the nail on the head, a car with 300bhp and rubbish suspension could be effectivly slower than a 1L micra :lol:

through any involving roads

[gsbellew 0]

Henny hit the nail on the head, a car with 300bhp and rubbish suspension could be effectivly slower than a 1L micra :lol:

through any involving roads

 

Ah now Richard, to be slower than a 1.0 Micra things would have to be pretty bad, they step out at 40mph on roundabouts, the G40 handles well in comparison to the wifes Micra :-P :lol:

[GazzaG60 0]

i could do with a diff in it thats for sure. the rest is sorted. mixing in a subaru based community changes your perception of fwd handling. my main fun point, the 65mm is also my downfall. too much low down. i fancy a change in delivery so am going for a top end monster.

[Yandards 0]

Its all about how you want your power and torque delivered and you can tailor an engine to give you what you want if you spend enough money!

 

It is a standard VW 8v thing that there is plenty low down but not a lot up top, the complete opposite of the 16v engine.

 

As has already been mentioned the engine is only 1 part of the package and to get the best out of it you need to make sure its balanced and, more importantly, fit for the purpose that you need it for.

[biggrim 0]

Henny,

 

was that not a Pirelli advert or summat?

[vr6storm 0]

Henny,

 

was that not a Pirelli advert or summat?

 

 

good spot grim :D

[Henny 0]

feck knows, but it's a good quote... 8) :silly:

[Shilakadaddy 0]

For some reason I was imagining spiderman... but I don't think thats right :roll:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I think Pirelli's current 'fist' (made up of 4 tyres) advert still uses that quote IIRC?

 

On the FWD thing. People take the defacto 200hp limit too much as read these days....especially when those lunatics on TG hoon the cars round that track in such a way to deliberately show up a 250bhp FWD Alfa V6...and then make a point of going on about this 200hp limit shortly after. Yes that big engine over the front wheels will make it's presence felt on the roads, but not quite like that it won't, unless you're as mechanically unsympathetic as Clarskon.

 

But that's what it's all about though isn't it, using that power out of corners, because in a straightline (and in fact a track), the RS Focus has already proven a good chassis, a diff and good tyres are all you need to beat a Subaru point to point and on a track.

 

So my rather long winded point is this.....200hp is not the limit of FW per se, but may be the limit of some unskilled drivers. I personally feel 300 is probably closer to the limit for daily driving, certainly in terms of what the Golf and Corrado chassis are capable of at least.

 

And besides, it's the torque that breaks traction and chucks you in your seat anyway. People say 200hp limit, but that's not a problem to a Civic Type R with only 140 pounds of torque, which is about 10 more than an 8V MK3 GTI :-)

[G60 Bob 0]

"Power is nothing without control" is the Pirelli slogan that was originally used in an ad featuring Carl Lewis in a pair of red high heels! - so there you go (it was one of my favourites actually).

 

I think that image actually illustrates the point perfectly that it doesnt matter how much power you have it means nothing unless you are able to use it!

[GazzaG60 0]

"And besides, it's the torque that breaks traction and chucks you in your seat anyway. People say 200hp limit, but that's not a problem to a Civic Type R with only 140 pounds of torque, which is about 10 more than an 8V MK3 GTI "

 

 

my point exactly kev. a lower torque, high rever will keep traction better than our 8v type of setup and when you bump up the torque to our standards with a turbo or supercharger that larger powerband makes for a faster, more tractable car.

[phatG60 0]

Some intresting replies here, i think you will also agree that to be able to even compare the flow between the too said heads is somthing in its self..

As Henny says these are not cheap but..... Add up the price of the 16vg60 conversion and then the price of one of our heads and it speaks for its self. The flow test above is with std valves with the new valves fitted it has been flowed with a 17% exhaust increase which i think you will agree is quite impressive.They also add the benifit of keeping you engine bay looking OEM and also the 8v torque characteristics we all know and love...

Im sorry to harp on about these but they have taken over 6mths of development work and im very proud of the results

** there's life in these old 8v's yet ! :wink**

 

Darren how much fruit salad am i going to have to part with for one of these? :lol:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

my point exactly kev. a lower torque, high rever will keep traction better than our 8v type of setup and when you bump up the torque to our standards with a turbo or supercharger that larger powerband makes for a faster, more tractable car.

 

Yeah, that's the beauty of the Supercharged VR6. Because it's a cross-flow head (i.e fairly lacking low down) and the charger being centrifugal, you effectively have a normal VR below 3500ish rpm and then because the car is already rolling, when the boost starts building there's no sudden slug of torque to break traction as the boost builds gradually with engine revs.

 

I've driven a MK2 Golf with a 20V Turbo in it which wasn't setup quite right and the torque off idle was just silly. You couldn't pull away from the lights without spin because the grunt just kicked in far too low.

 

It's kind of ironic that the G60's restrictive head is the reason behind the bottom end grunt. Speed up the gas flow with narrow ports and inlet runners and you get a lovely response low down, which is obviously what VW wanted...but then on the motorway, those narrow tracts cause restriction...... it's all a balancing act.... you can seldom have 8v bottom end with 16V top end in the same engine...but hopefully we can come to a good compromise.