The Forced Induction VR6 thread

[vr6boy 0]

Well guys I have a bit of an update :clap:

Front shafts 500whp

SX Performance Fuel pump and fuel filter

SPTurbo stage 2 forged rods

Tial wastegate and blow off valve

Golf 2 syncro which it will al be going into :D

Wossner Forged pistons 83mm and 8.5CR

Syncro again

My VR6 block bored and honed ready to be rebuilt

SPTurbo Meth kit (Cheers Kev for dropping this into Stealth racing)

 

Thats what I came across today/yesterday so its getting closer now :lol:

[marcus 0]

Ive now ditched the EiP, standard injector set-up chip and have been running C2 management with 360cc injectors,3 bar fpr and 4inch MAF housing for the last week.

The improvement on delivery and smoothness of power in general driving and full boost up to 6500 is outstanding and I'm over the moon with how it drives now. I'm going to get it on the RR in a few weeks and will post the results....I'm quietly confident they're going to be sweeet.

 

I highly recommend the C2 software for around £400.00 (their customer service are reliable, prompt and very helpful too).

I would never claim to be an expert on mapping, but certainly know the feel of a smooth drive!!

I'll be impressed if It could be better than how its running now. :-)

[VR6Joni 0]

Hi all,

I'm quite new to the forum, mainly being reading and making a shopping list to join the forced induction club, and I can't wait.

Anyway, I have a Rotrex SP30-94 from a beemer kit, its currently in bits awaiting new bearings. For Robs info the critical bearings are the 6 on the 3 middle rollers, they are NSK 6002 C4 bearings (6002 is a standard size and C4 is the tolerance which is quite high). I'm currently waiting for a quote for these! I'll put some pictures on the thread if anyone is interested in what's actually inside a rotrex as I was impressed.

 

Can anyone confirm what the primer is for the SP chargers as I don't have one, I'm sure I read it was a non return valve???

 

My VR has had an LPG conversion in a previous life so this is going to be some task, however the gas system can be modified to run with the charger, with a remap(to gas piggy back ecu), a MAP sensor and possibly new injectors. But I'm gonna concentrate on getting the petrol side running correctly first. Depending on gas ECU I may possibly try running both fuels simultaneously as gas could have charge cooling properties so could be interesting.

 

Currently I have or will be ordering:

Charger, bracket and pulleys etc.

Air hoses etc.

Recirculation Valve.

LC-1.

Pressure sender (for boost).

Custom screen for multiple process readings.

9:1 spacer and sharan gasket.

ARP head and rod bolts.

 

Does any one think I will need anything else for initial setup other than fueling as discussed below?

 

I'm undecided on what to do with the petrol fueling, at the moment its either tweaking fuel regulation which I don't think will be possible as I recon I'll be looking at between 10-12psi (just waiting for Andy from Storm on that one). However I've read crazydave has done good work with just uprated injectors. As I'm and electronic design engineer I'm more than willing to do some electrical frigging to get the standard system running. Also, would I need to do anything regarding fuel pressure regulation if I ran larger injectors with 10-12psi boost.

 

Sorry if this is a bit technical, but as I have an EEPROM burner/reader.

1) is it possible to burn my own MAP's?

2) and if so does anyone know how to decipher it? Just fueling to start with.

 

Thanks in advance for any feedback guys.

Jonathan

[VR6Joni 0]

I got round to taking a few pics of the rotrex internals today, this is the SP series so its worth bearing in mind the new C series is different if the exploded view on their website is anything to go by. Also here's how I took it to bits:

 

1)Take the pulley off, I used a clamp with a couple of lengths of rubber matting around so as not to damage it, an old aux belt will probably also do the trick, its a standard thread but will be very tight.

 

2)Remove the 2 bolts that hold the compressor housing on, and remove. The plate with the compressor can be lifted out of the main housing. If its stuck you can knock it off by giving the pulley shaft a quick knock (I used a suitable size socket and rubber mallet). The plate will lift out with all the rollers attached.

 

3)The compressor can then be removed by using the flats on the other end of the spindle, the nut that holds the compressor on is reverse thread.

 

4)Now the tricky bit, removing the annullus, this is stretched over the 3 rollers so is tight, I simply prised it off using a bit of heat to make it expand and therefore that bit easier. I used electrical screw drivers (plastic coated) and wood between the 3 rollers and lifted all at the same time so as not to damage it

 

5)To be continued, from here on I believe everything just pulls apart after the 3 retaining screws are removed from the inner rollers but it is tight, here's a few pics:

 

Compressor and its housing

 

Pulley and annullus coupling in main body

 

The annullus, all frictional faces are steel on steel, I think the grooves are for oil pressure relief

 

Inner rollers

 

View of inner rollers and spindle from above

[VR6Joni 0]

So the pulley drives the annulus, which drives the 3 rollers, which drive the spindle with impellor attached?

That looks something like 2x crank to blower pulley [depending which one], 3x annulus to roller and about 5x roller to spindle, making about a 30x velocity ratio! so at 6k engine speed it'll turn over about 180k rpm!

I hope it's well balanced!

Are the bearings in the pulley spindle, rollers and impellor spindle? are they all plain roller type, outer ones with seals?

Re annulus grooves won't these distribute oil to the annulus/roller interface, the feed presumably being central?

 

Annulus - Rollers 2.2:1, Rollers - Spindle 4.3:1, so charger ratio is 9.5:1 as is the C30 series. I'm not sure what crank pulley size is(anyone know off the top of their head?), but my charger pulley is 85mm so would guesstimate about 2:1, therefore if you really wind it on you are looking at 120k+.

There are not any bearings on the spindle it simply sits between the rollers and goes through a shaft seal where the compressor is attached. There are bearings (ball) top and bottom of each roller as seen from the pic below, the pulley shaft goes a sealed bearing (NSK 6003DU) then through a shaft seal, then through another bearing and then through the oil pump then to the annulus drive coupling.

As for the price of the bearings I have seen a rebuild kit for $250, not quite sure how that price came about. I got them from city seals and bearings as they are just down the road from where I work, hoping they have suitable seals too although the original ones seem fine.

 

Retaining plate removed.

 

My crude method of removing said plate, I used 2 speed cramps, 3 would have been much better and quicker :shrug:

 

Are they Team Dynamics wheels on your Corrado Joni? They look a lot like my ProRace 1s.

 

They were on the car when I bought it, they are by BSA (I had never heard of them before I bought the car), I did want to change them (git to clean) but have grown on me.

[VR6Joni 0]

Andy at Storm got back to me on Friday and said he reckoned I'd be looking at ~13psi with my current pulley set up, this was a little higher than I expected and is no doubt gonna mean charge cooling will be required. Anyone got a vague idea of what BHP this is likely to generated with lowered compression ratio (9:1) and standard management?

Also will it be safe to run the charger in without charge cooling (I.e. below 4k rpm)?

On the charge cooling note, would I be right in assuming a very basic system could be easily made with a pump (possible fuel pump), a regulator (check valve) and an injector(s) and obviously some electronics to power the injector. And before anyone says anything, yes I am a tight git.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

A few chupachupdates on mine....

 

That battery relocation I mentioned....

 

 

Not much new in here, other than Schimmel HT leads with integral pull up handles (saves mincing about with the stupid hazet tool)... Note the Bosch MK1 GTI air valve next to the throttle. Awesome idle from that little fella. It's temporary until DTA release their "official" DBW controller.

 

ATP manifold etc going on later in the year.

 

 

One of the interior... The gauges are Wideband AF in the stereo slot, Digital fuel pressure above the fog switches, Boost and oil pressure below the fan switches and EGT below the rev counter. Mileage now on 164ish K. Turbo was installed at 140K, so I'd say 2 years of daily Sir Turboness is good going for a DIY install :D Initial teething issues ignored obviously :lol:

 

 

Some better ones of the exterior. White wheels don't look to bad imo, but they'll be going soon.

 

 

 

Weedy exhaust pipe, I love it :lol:

 

[Philmo 0]

Found a long lasting plug at last, to replace my trusty NGK V Powers.

 

It's the Bosch F5DPOR from an Audi S2. Being platinum it should last 4 to 5 times longer than the copper V powers.

 

Strange side fire arrangement, but works really well.

 

Hi Kev

Are these suitable for my modest machine?

Yea! I like the TD's too - did you see the deal that MicVR & Coullstar agreed?

[vr6boy 0]

Well lads just back from USA with some more top quality SP Turbo parts and they are as follows

.:R32 clutch and flywheel kit supposed to be good for 1000whp

Level 5 (750whp) 02m Shafts only 1 in pic

SP Turbo Big valve Head with 1mm oversize ferrera inlet and inconel exhaust valves

 

I am changing the direction of my project slightly :D

I am now going with a SP Turbo short block and JE custom spec forged pistons and will be running the syncro on E85 so I had to change all fuel rail fittings and aeroquip hoses from -6an upto -8an.

The turbo I hope to run is either GT4094R or a GT42R Bill is checking both out for me at the moment

I will also be fitting a Kinetics motorsport turbo manifold with twin 38mm Tial wastegates (As per Bill) due to the size of the turbo, and 1200cc low impediance injectors (DTA also make an adapter box that converts from high to low impediance)

 

I dont think I put any pics up of what this is all going into yet so here we go its a LHD golf syncro in 3 door,

 

It will be running a 4 motion 02m gearbox and rear diff both are being fitted with Peloquin diffs and a 4 motion controller

I want to fit a full weld in approved roll cage and have the shell fully seamwelded all for strength

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

i will soon be reporting on my C2 software as soon as my ecu is socketed! wahoo!

[dukest 0]

was up at stealth yesterday and so managed to get a picture of the engine that Jon there is preparing for his 4mo bora :)

 

don't think the picture really does it justice but he's aiming for 800bhp with the bored out r32 + mahoosive turbo!

 

08112008758.jpg[/attachment:2cf95rel]

[rado dave 0]

hi guys im a newbie to the forum and have been reading thru some of this this thread as its quite long, and its left me with some questions?

i have a vr6 rado on an m reg its done just under 180k miles and im not sure if its safe to turbo it as is? it does smoke a wee bit under hard acceleration but seems to be black not blue smoke.i know i need to change some of the sensors and poss the maf too but im wondering if i should bore and sleave the original 2.9 then turbo it or would i be cheaper + safer fitting a newer 24v vr then fitting a turbo that?

also if anyone knows were i mite be able source any of these parts for my build that would be great

thanx

[boost monkey 0]

180k is a bit high for just slapping on a turbo imo. You wouldn't probably be wise to give it a rebuild at the same timer.

 

12v versus 24v... well there's an ongoing debate!

[The_Dude 0]

As there's one for sale atm and I've not been able to find a definitive answer anywhere on t'interweb - what does a short runner actually do and are they better more suited to turbots than supers?

[rado dave 0]

As there's one for sale atm and I've not been able to find a definitive answer anywhere on t'interweb - what does a short runner actually do and are they better more suited to turbots than supers?

from what i can tell the short runner manifold cuts down on intake temp as the mani doesnt run over the top of the engine this stops heat sook from the cam cover/ cylinder head, exhaust manifold. and yeah they are ment more for both types of forced induction mate hope that helps :)

[Toad 0]

The long runners are to improve torque on N/A engines, you don't need that on forced induction, plus, the throttle body is closer to the inlet ports so throttle response is improved. Short runners also help in some inlet piping routings esp where you have a FMIC.

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

Well i can report the C2 software is a joy to drive with,just like a normal car but it goes like stink when you put your foot down to the metal!

 

So if you like the idea of plug and play power i cant recommend C2 enough!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

The FI VR6 thread is back. Sorry, but I had to take it down for maintenance as it was getting too bloated again. Reduced from 2500 posts to 800 ish. No one's posts in particular were targetted for removal, just general hoovering. Most of the pruned ones were mine as it happens :lol: I've tried to keep it as pertinent as possible, but inevitably some useful stuff may have gone walkies.

 

I have to say though, this is the most popular thread on the forum with 110,000 views. I suspect "guests" have probably been on for a read due to "VR6 turbo" put into google bringing up this site. Well done chaps, a tonne of useful info here!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Update on mine.

 

Nothing much to report really. Just been driving it every day for months with a cracked manifold and it's still remarkably reliable. Amazing cars VRTs 8)

 

Buying a new house has eaten much of my time and money the past couple of months, but after I've moved in (Jan hopefully) I'll be buying a TIG welder and executing project "Do it properly this time" with the parts below, which I've been gathering up over time :lol:

 

 

OK, so we have:-

 

TIAL 44mm Wastegate - Replaces inadequate 38mm gate

Stage8 Locking Turbo bolts - Replaces B&Q crap bolts that keep unwinding

ATP manifold - Replaces crap SPA Turbo manifold

ATP heat shield

ATP 4" to 3" reducer

ARP exhaust studs and nuts - Replaces winky OE items

Denso 1220 injectors - Replaces jurassic Delphis

Bosch 044 pump - In addition to existing pump

Plain GT35R housing with 90 deg elbow tigged on - Replaces anti-surge housing

9lb cromoly flywheel - Replaces OE dinosaur

And some flex bellows. One for downpipe, one for wastegate.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

A little more about the Denso injectors. I spent a long time researching the best injector for a VR6 12V and these are the best atomisers currently available :notworthy: They are from the forthcoming 2009 Mazda RX8, so you''re the first to know folks :D

 

The atomisation from these bad boys is unbelievable 8) 500cc @ 4 bar. It's all you need when you have an efficient injector :)

 

Here you can see the difference compared to a Delphi 525cc injector designed in the 90s. The Denso is half the size and weight and massively more efficient. They had to be adapted to fit the VR6, hence the washers and e clips etc, but they fit perfectly.

 

[Toad 0]

Plain GT35R housing with 90 deg elbow tigged on - Replaces anti-surge housing

 

What's the difference in the housings? How come you've changed them?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

In the below pic, Anti-surge housing on the left, plain on the right.

 

Anti-surge helps reduce boost surge and also the "cha cha cha" waltz when closing the throttle. Anti-surge isn't really needed on the VR6 with a GT35. I was over cautious the first time round but now I know I can run a plain housing, which gives a better top end.

 

You can see the milled in "vents" around the inducer blades, which bleeds air back into the intake to reduce compressor stall.

 

[Toad 0]

the "cha cha cha" waltz when closing the throttle.

 

Is that the compresser stalling?

 

Also would I be right in thinking that the anti surge housing is more important on turbos that spool up quicker?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

It is indeed. People often mistake that noise as "wastegate chatter". The noise is actually caused by air being blasted backwards over the compressor and out through the air filter.

 

Yep, AS helps with quick spooling turbos but it can be avoided by studying compressor maps and matching the turbo to the engine's cfm throughput. It just so happens the GT35R is c0ck on for the VR6.

[herisites 0]

You're my hero Kev :D

 

I see what you are doing mate and i like your thinking, gathering all the parts you need ready for that new double garage 8) nice move! :lol: