Jim 2 Posted October 16, 2011 Sweet :) Nice work as always. Looking forward to seeing a video of the magic moment... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Portent 0 Posted October 16, 2011 Lovely car :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daves16v 1 Posted October 16, 2011 Nice work Kev, looks very stock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KADVR6 0 Posted October 16, 2011 you have just gotta put an 8v badge on the rear mate lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted October 17, 2011 Cheers guys :D :lol: It might sound a bit too fruity for an 8V! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Supercharged 2 Posted October 17, 2011 I'd get the R32 badges while you still can! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted October 17, 2011 Before they start appearing on ebay for £80+? :lol: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boost monkey 0 Posted October 17, 2011 This thread is epic!!! did you go to moneysupermarket.com? :lol: Seriously though, I have a question about your throttle mapping and DTA management. Could you, if you so choosed, change the pedal-to-TB movement on the fly? I'm just wondering if it's possible to say let the car start from cold with 100% pedal = 50% throttle (perhaps even a rev limiter too?) and then when the engine oil gets to a certain amount it would change to 100% pedal = 100% throttle? I know it's something most of us do anyways, waiting for the MFA to rear a good oil temp before pressing on, but if you could do it automatically then that would be cool. Maybe something even simpler like wiring it into the cold start sensors so that when cold start mode is off, pedal movement = throttle movement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) He he, I knew you'd appreciate the fly by wire stuff Boosty :D You can't adjust the pedal to throttle translation on the fly, well, not yet anyway. Maybe they'll add it later! Just like the engine ECU, the throttle ECU is fully firmware flashable for future updates :D I suspect valet mode (throttle movement limit) and cruise control options will follow! BMW M engines do what you describe though mate, i.e. "you're only getting this much throttle until your oil is warm pal!" Looks like the R32 coils work a treat too, which is a bloody relief as I was worried about those. 4 pin coils and the DTA don't have a good track record but I'm not sure how many of the horror stories are down to user error, but I'm happy with what I saw. The injectors tested well too, so it's almost ready to fire up! For the purpose of the test, I had to rig up a fat bit of wire to make an earth strap for the spark plugs seeing as the intake is plastic... no ground... no sparky sparky :D And of course, a video of the sparkies in action! Edited October 20, 2011 by Kevin Bacon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) Before firing up the beast, I thought I'd turn it over to build hydraulic pressure in the cam gear and make sure pistons don't hit valves being as it's been apart. All seemed fine :D Whilst doing that I thought I'd run the DTA's cranking scope which plots the signals it receives from the cam and crank sensors. All VR6s have a flywheel mode known as '60-2', which is pressed steel disc with 60 notches (aka teeth) in it. So 58 'teeth' and 2 holes = 60. The crank sensor sits about 1mm off these teeth and it uses the 2 missing teeth as reference gap, or the start of the 360 degree cycle. Each tooth represents 6 degrees of the 360 cycle (60 x 6 degrees). Cam sensors are just markers for where they are seen within that same 360 cycle. Everything relates back to crank position. The Crank is king! This is why VR6s don't run at all when the crank sensor dies. The 58 shown below is a strong voltage spike from the crank sensor, the shorter yellow lines are each of the 58 teeth inbetween and the pink lines are the signals from the 2 cam sensors. So what you are seeing there is 4 complete crank turns. This is exactly what I was hoping to see because you can easily wire the crank sensor the wrong way round, so that's a relief! The R32 uses 4 tooth cam trigger wheels where as the VR6 just has the one tooth. This presents quite a few mapping challenges. Why 4 toofs? With a single tooth cam sensor, the engine needs to perform a full 360 cycle to syncronise the signal before starting the coils and injectors. This is why VR6s take longer than modern engines to fire up, especially when the sensors get on a bit and don't give a strong signal during cranking. 4 toof cam triggers (aka "Quick start rings") allow the engine to fire up on any engine stroke, so it will start a lot quicker, saving wear and tear and of course saving fuel which ticks the "keep Brussels happy" box. I don't care how long my 32 takes to start so I don't need 4 toofs and the DTA doesn't support "Quick start" anyway, but the DTA does have a software 'mask' to block out the unwanted cam signals and give me just the 1 for each cam. So I just need to work out which of those cam signals occurs at TDC. Simples! :D Edited October 20, 2011 by Kevin Bacon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim 2 Posted October 20, 2011 The little spark plug test is excellent... am I just being stupid, or does it have that offbeat VR6 sort of sound to it just from the sound of the sparking?! :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swompy 0 Posted October 20, 2011 The little spark plug test is excellent... am I just being stupid, or does it have that offbeat VR6 sort of sound to it just from the sound of the sparking?! :) I was thinking that too. Even the spark plugs have the distinct vr6 sound. Can never get bored reading this thread and learn so much at the same time. Top work :D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dan_Storm 0 Posted October 21, 2011 And of course, a video of the sparkies in action! Looks like Kev has got his Christmas lights up early! :) Amazing stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
24V Renshaw 0 Posted October 21, 2011 Very interesting thread. Love the detail. Jay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boost monkey 0 Posted October 21, 2011 Just watched the sparky vid! very cool :D Like the added touch of turning out the lights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DANG60 0 Posted October 21, 2011 Been following this car since I joined the forum. Just when you think it can't get better it does. Which dta are you using? How many coils can it fire separately? I presume its 8. I'm using a dta s40 pro on my 20v Corrado and that only has two coil drivers which I thought was pants as the q peng Ecu it replaced had 4. Very interesting with the dbw throttle that must be relatively new out. You had many dealings with the people at dta? They don't seem to helpful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted October 23, 2011 Thanks as ever chaps for the words of encouragement :D I see you what you mean about the spark plug sound! It's an odd one the VR6 noise. It has the same firing order as a BMW inline 6 (1,5,3,6,2,4) but the BMW engine doesn't sound anything like a VR6, so it must just be the intake :D Dan, I know what you mean about DTA. I've never had a problem with them personally but I know how Allan comes across on the phone! :lol: I'm using an S80 + their DBW controller. Both are very nice units and the software is excellent. You only need 4 coil drivers if you want to run coil-per-plug, i.e. "Full Sequential" and no one does that, especially with 20VT coils! It makes the mapping considerably more complex and you need a cam sensor. Not every engine has a cam sensor and some race regulations don't allow that kind of change to be made. DTA is for race engines first, road engines second unfortunately. Anyway, 2 coil drivers are all you need for a standard wasted spark 1-3-4-2 engine :D I only used 3 coil drivers on my VRT! So, a bit more on the cranking scope, but this time with the spark plugs fitted, which generates humps. The humps are where the starter motor slows down because of the compression. The peak of the hump is TDC, so you can count teeth between that line and the sensor and work out the cam and crank static positions (the software needs to know them)! This one is very busy as it shows all 8 teeth signals from the cams. The humps look a bit chopped because the engine was hot and trying to start by compressing (the coils were unplugged) residual fuel! The numbers have also changed a bit since the last time as the engine has been running and filled the cam adjusters more thoroughly. So what I did was disconnect the exhaust cam sensor so that I can pick out the intake can sensor pulses. And likewise the exhaust cam. It looks like the inlet's unique gap is between teeth 15 and 28 and the exhaust's is between 8 and 21, so I need to experiment with the software filter until I get some sensible looking cam angles. I got the fuel lines done this weekend too. The standard air box to engine clearance is very tight compared to the 12V, so I've had to use some suitably robust fuel lines mounted very close to the engine and also make sure the lines go under the air box inlet. None of this normally has to be done because people use filters on the nearside, so this is all fairly unique stuff again :D I've had to make a bracket to pull the airbox over a bit because the natural clearance is about 5mm! I've also taken the "VW V6" plinth off for deblinging. It will be modified to a style more fitting of the car's age :D So yeah I've had it idling and revving nicely today and it's nice and smooth as expected! Can't wait to get it all fully mapped and drive it :D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CorradoVR6-Turbo 0 Posted October 23, 2011 nice progress Kev,you going to turbo this? or play with na for a while? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quicky1980 0 Posted October 23, 2011 Nice work Kev, I love each time I visit your thread I learn more! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pat_McCrotch 0 Posted October 23, 2011 I've got a brand new VR6 rear badge that I ordered from Classic Parts as a spare if you want it for what it owes me Kev? Looking forward to seeing it tomorrow :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CazzaVR 0 Posted October 23, 2011 Nice work all round, Kevin 8) Spark plug test is simple, yet genius! Slightly disappointed that you didn't manage to get the sparks to change colour though... :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim 2 Posted October 23, 2011 Brilliant. I'm so pleased it's all coming together for you so well - just shows if you put all the time in beforehand with the research, etc then it pays off! As the old saying goes Proper Planning Prevents P!ss Poor Performance!! :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted October 23, 2011 Cheers guys! Yeah it's been a much more relaxed project this time round as I don't need it for work anymore :D Turbo - Not sure yet, but probably! I might just start off with 8psi with the stock inlet and see what that's like. 8psi on the 32 is probably still good for 400hp! I'd love to turbo a MK5 R32 but they're still too expensive to buy at the moment. I've still got the airbox to figure out. The pipe work for it is a right pain. I'm not sure I'll be able to pull it off tbh but I'll use Kip's method as a back up if not. i.e. MK4 airbox behind the battery! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fla 9 Posted October 23, 2011 dont worry, i'm sure Mk5 prices will drop quickly too like the 24v did - which reminds me, let me know when you want rid of it (the 2.8 that is!) I assume fitting the Mk5 engine after the Mk4 would be less of a project on the electrical side? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted October 23, 2011 Aye, I hope so. I do really like MK5 R32s. Quite like the MK4 as well but prefer the 5 :D I'll have a chat over PM about the 2.8! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
