DG Autotech VR6 cams

[The_Dude 0]

Ha! You've got it easy! I have an all day trip. 3 or 4 hours drive dependent on traffic and my right foot, then 4 1/2 hours of train, tube and bus to get home again. I don't even spend that long at work...

[boost monkey 0]

Honestly we think 25bhp would be the high end of any gains you would get, and depends on engine mileage and condition etc...so if your engines done 140k+ without a head rebuild etc its not going to gain as much.

 

Those with a dead cam sensor need not apply :lol:

[Mr Sands 0]

Received the following communications from Dave earlier on:

 

 

"The results are in.......212hp! Nice fat torque curve. Air fuel spot on 12.5! Really pleased with that, this dyno is really accurate. :)"

 

Suffice it to say, that absolutely made my afternoon/early Christmas/year...and I haven't even driven her myself yet, merely heard Dave and Graham say how it goes "like stink", for a N/A tuned VR that is; clearly the more hardcore among you, including the dynamic duo, start forcing induction. Nutters! :D It's OEM+ all the way for me and it doesn't get much more plus than an extra 20 odd bhp above stock and, much more importantly, a big fat wad of extra torque across the rev. range.

 

Granted, I think the low miles on mine (72,200ish) and the simultaneously rebuilt head probably did a good deal to help boost the figures.

 

I'll try to publish any graphs or data that come my way in time but for now, I am one very very happy camper. Roll on tomorrow and I'll be able to tell you all how a VR with DG cams in actually drives! :shades:

 

Oh, it wasn't ALL good news. In the wait for the dyno slot, Dave and Graham found my stash of giant Cadbury's buttons on the under glove box shelf...

[4eyes2wheels 0]

Thanks for the update, I am pencilled in to have mine fitted on Wednesday 15th December.

 

Can't wait!

[vornwend 0]

Nice one Ed :) sounds as if the boys have done you proud. The extra torque is great but you'll soon get used to it :wink: Have you got a BMC on yet? Be interesting to swap cars for a spin to see what differences we can feel. Planning a bit of work at D&G myself in the new year (3.68 final drive to go in).

[harryc 0]

Think i'll be ordering a set of these then!

[Bullfinch 0]

Think i'll be ordering a set of these then!

+1 when I get back from my jaunt down under. Also I've a BMC to fit at the same time. I won't know what's hit me :lol: .

[coullstar 0]

Any plans to try these on the Turbo?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Pretty good result!

 

Vornwend and VAG-HAG found an extra ~30hp from their SP263s IIRC, so I'm not seeing any need to rush out and buy the DGR cams just yet. As Coullstar said, I'm interested to see what the gains would be with Forced Induction compared to SP cams. £350 isn't really having a punt price :D

[nemesis360 0]

As has been said a million times before...you cant compare different rolling roads!

 

As a reference we took an 83k stock VR with us as a comparison and it made 184bhp (unfortunatly we couldnt run Ed's before the cams were fitted as the head gasket had failed), previous runs on this rolling road with different stock VR's have made results within 3 bhp of this figure.

 

The rollers are a 1 year old Dynojet setup.

 

So I know you cant compare between different cars etc etc... but if you take the figure above as a rough guide...

 

212bhp minus 184bhp = 28 bhp

 

The profile of the cams were chosen to increse torque over the entire rev range (and as we know torque is what makes cars quick) so mega bhp figures were not what we were looking for.

 

Anyway we will get some graphs up once they have emailed them to us and you can make your own minds up :)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Then what's the purpose of your numbers then?

 

What I said still stands. I'm not seeing anything remarkably different here from what's already available. You've not provided any details of peak lift, seperation or duration at lift or what quality the blanks are etc etc so people looking to upgrade from a known good cam have nothing to go on.

[big ben 10]

buy a set of cams and get them fitted for free, that would work out for most people :D

[C5 OEM 0]

buy a set of cams and get them fitted for free, that would work out for most people :D

 

 

that`d tempt me.. :wave:

[nemesis360 0]

I wasnt having a pop at you Kev!

 

You wont see any huge gains over something like SP263's as they are a great cam and weve had great results with them as well, I dont think anyone is going to come up with anything remarkable for a NA VR over what has been done already...weve just come at it from a slightly different angle.

 

The RR results were done as a reference for Ed as he was intereseted and anyone thinking about cams has an idea of what they can do.

[harryc 0]

What are the DG+ cam specs? duration etc?

 

Edit; And how much are a pair of new SP263's?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I wasnt having a pop at you Kev!

 

You wont see any huge gains over something like SP263's as they are a great cam and weve had great results with them as well, I dont think anyone is going to come up with anything remarkable for a NA VR over what has been done already...weve just come at it from a slightly different angle.

 

The RR results were done as a reference for Ed as he was intereseted and anyone thinking about cams has an idea of what they can do.

 

Sorry Graham, I misinterpreted your first sentence as a grumpy retort :D

 

I'm not not trying to start a cam war btw. As someone mentioned previously, you guys wouldn't have bothered with your own cams if the SPs were as good as you can get, and knowing yours and Dave's eye for refinement, it's those differences I'm most interested in!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

What are the DG+ cam specs? duration etc?

 

Edit; And how much are a pair of new SP263's?

 

SP263s were $375 last time I looked, but their site is being rebuilt and they're not on there at the moment.

 

For reference, the baseline numbers for two popular cams:-

 

SP263 - Duration 263 on 115 Lobe Centre, 11.5mm lift.

 

Autotech 262 - Duration 262 on 115 Lobe Centre, 11.2mm lift.

 

Autotech explain cam design quite nicely on their site and the other numbers that affect cam behaviour, cam profile designers tend to keep to themselves :D

 

http://www.autotech.com/prod_engine_camshafts.htm

 

A 270+ with the manners of a 263 would be superb. Not sure if it's doable though. An American firm made a 288 profile for a Texas Mile time attack VRT and that thing was making power at 8000rpm! It idled log a dog though, apparently.

[Mr Sands 0]

Right. I've spent two days searching for the "has put cat among pigeons" emoticon but there doesn't seem to be one! However, I fear that by satisying people's curiosity by quoting the bhp figure (generated on what is by all accounts quite a conservative dyno), I've rather missed the opportunity of passing on how utterly transformative these cams are.

 

Having had the car back for two days now and taken it on a couple of spirited drives as well as the daily commute, it excels now, far more than ever before, in all areas of daily VR driving. The first and most noticeable feature is the far more effortless attitude of the throttle; those of you who've already had a custom DG map know exactly what I'm talking about. It's like a massively intensified, exponentially multiplied version of that extra smooth and potent response, what I like to call "The DG Factor".

 

In whatever gear, at whatever RPM, the request for power of depressing the accelerator meets with a far smoother and more potent delivery of torque. Classic occasions where the VR lump is lazy (low revs or when cruising in a lower gear or up a hill), it now gives far more of a feeling of being a big, powerful six litre lump. What I can't emphasise enough though is how smooth the delivery of that torque is. The timing and mapping ensure that it is delivered in a refined manner, whatever the gear. Ultimately, it helps to turn the VR into what it always has been, for me at least: a potent but classy grand tourer that is effortless to drive smoothly.

 

However, like all grand tourers, it's got to go like a scalded cat when you want it to. This is where the VR has always excelled: wring its neck, push the revs up to 3,500/4,000 rpm and the gorgeous noise starts and the world goes backwards. The new cams have added masses here too: that feeling of immense power delivery comes in consistently earlier on and more freely, as outlined above. But if you do decide to head up towards the redline, at 5000 rpm plus, a whole new bonkers world arrives. I can't believe how much more the engine now feels that it's got under the bonnet and the VR soundtrack just got remastered in extra clarity and glory. There is an almost savage extra push and drive to the top end to complement the lower end refinement and smoothness.

 

Allied to an absolutely silky smooth idle, the whole package is testament to Dave and Graham's absolute expertise with this engine (and VAG generally) and is, for me, the ultimate OEM+ mod. If you came new to Corrados and bought one with DG cams and map, you would have no idea that this wasn't entirely stock; you'd simply think that this is how VW intended the car to be. I think you'd then be disappointed if you stepped into a stock example, that it was missing some key elements.

 

For me, making performance mods has always been something I've been hugely reticent about, since often you have to sacrifice some element of OEM comfort/smoothness/refinement to get the gain. This is the best of both worlds: much more rewarding performance, both cruising AND hooning but all wrapped up in totally OEM feeling smoothness and professional delivery.

 

Dave and Graham, I salute you. :notworthy: The VR now drives like it should do. Anyone thinking of cams, you can't go wrong here. Rather than the bhp figure (impressive enough for me given the rather parsimonious dyno on which it was tested), trust in my "bum dyno's" (Dave's charming phrase) excellent feedback. My bottom is never wrong.

 

Ed.

[andy 0]

Wow, some serious praise there. Great writeup. Thanks.

[C5 OEM 0]

Great write up and i`m sure d&g will have some great graphs and comparsions soon enough to show/highlight the improvements the map and the cams have.

[Jim 1]

Intending to try a bit of side-by-side "sprint" action with Mr Sands and vornwend at some point.. between us we have the following combinations of VR6:

 

Me: SP263's & DG Autotech remap

Vorn: SP263's & Stealth Racing remap

Mr Sands: DG Cams & DG Remap

 

If we can try find a quiet empty motorway on the way to a show one day and get side by side, same gear, same revs and see how the cars pull in different scenario's. Not an entirely scientific test but would be interesting to see! Would be good to throw a standard VR6 into that mix too just to see what the difference is!

[OSV 0]

That would be very interesting especially with a stock car in the mix, you can do it in a range of scenarios too, different speeds, gears rolling standing etc real world evaluation would be good. Do you have any idea of the power figures for yours Jim.

[Mr Sands 0]

To andy and C5 OEM, you're more than welcome for the write up; hope it helps. All I'm doing is paying tribute to an absolutely outstanding bit of kit. C5 OEM, I'm sure that Dave and Graham will be more than happy to talk through torque figures, likely gains, showing graphs etc with you, since all our cars these days have got to the stage (at least fifteen years old) where they all have their own idiosyncracies and conditions affecting likely returns. To that end, very sensibly I think, Dave and Graham include a fulsome check of the car's health in the price of cams plus fitting and remap (Linky) in order to try to make sure that you'll get the results you hope for.

 

For that reason too, any graphs generated for any particular car are best seen really in the context of that car only, since they're all at such different levels of engine strength/mileage wear etc. Taking mine as an example, quite by random coincidence, we discovered just before the scheduled cam fitting that the reason I'd been losing coolant slowly was head gasket failure. If we hadn't, the results on the cams and remapping would have been disappointing. With a rebuilt head, I'm sure that contributed to the extremely pleasing results that I'm finding.

 

Jim, I can't wait for a rather more unscientific but rather more enjoyable test! What would really top that off would be to pop someone in the car in front as a camera car and do the full on amateur Top Gear tribute. Failing that, strapping the eBay cheapy special cameras to each motor would produce an enjoyable record of the event. I still haven't got around to using mine since purchase (bloody life always gets in the way!) but I think the work on the VR has provided me with reason to do so over the Christmas break...

 

Ed.

[OSV 0]

Car Power Weight Power per tonne

 

 

Golf R32 MK4 237 bhp 1552 kg 152.7

Golf R32 MKV 247 bhp 1594 kg 154.95

 

Corrado VR6 190 bhp 1240 kg 153.22

 

 

210 bhp 1240 kg 169.35

212 bhp 1240 kg 170.96

215 bhp 1240 kg 173.39

 

My crude calculations show power increases should prove worthwhile

[vornwend 0]

Intending to try a bit of side-by-side "sprint" action with Mr Sands and vornwend at some point.. between us we have the following combinations of VR6:

 

Me: SP263's & DG Autotech remap

Vorn: SP263's & Stealth Racing remap

Mr Sands: DG Cams & DG Remap

 

If we can try find a quiet empty motorway on the way to a show one day and get side by side, same gear, same revs and see how the cars pull in different scenario's. Not an entirely scientific test but would be interesting to see! Would be good to throw a standard VR6 into that mix too just to see what the difference is!

 

Sounds a cracking idea :) The camera car could have a bright flashlight or flag to indicate go! I also think it would be informative for each of us to drive each others cars for a short spin - I nearly always find the first time I drive someone elses car the difference is really easy to feel and describe. Need to do this before I fit my 3.68 final drive though :wink:

 

To be even more scientific we should have the same level of adrenalin pumping and the same music blasting :) I think weight may also be a factor which puts me at an immediate disadvantage :lol: Could neutralise that with different fuel tank loads? - This will take some planning!