DG Autotech VR6 cams

[CazzaVR 0]

Sounds like a great idea- I'd be happy to contribute the 'stock' car, although I have had a DG remap, so, erm not exactly stock, but more stock than a cammed up VR :lol:

[Jim 1]

A stock VR with a remap would also be well worth including in the tests Andy... we'll have to put our heads together about this one when the weather gets a bit better. Wonder how much it is to hire Bruntingthorpe for an hour or two.. hmm..

[Mr Sands 0]

Loving all this gents. This has got legs...

[CazzaVR 0]

A stock VR with a remap would also be well worth including in the tests Andy... we'll have to put our heads together about this one when the weather gets a bit better. Wonder how much it is to hire Bruntingthorpe for an hour or two.. hmm..

 

Now, that's a plan...

[shaunVR6 0]

Well get it on pronto lads now the snows gone so we can compare :D

[iceviolet 0]

Yeah i would be very interested in this too. I have some SP 263'3 I am planning to put in and was hoping to take a trip to DG for the remap. So do i stick with the SP 263's or do i go DG cams?????

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Car Power Weight Power per tonne

 

 

Golf R32 MK4 237 bhp 1552 kg 152.7

Golf R32 MKV 247 bhp 1594 kg 154.95

 

Corrado VR6 190 bhp 1240 kg 153.22

 

 

210 bhp 1240 kg 169.35

212 bhp 1240 kg 170.96

215 bhp 1240 kg 173.39

 

My crude calculations show power increases should prove worthwhile

 

Thank you Gareth, for understanding the need to dicuss hp gains and for providing a real world example of how it can benefit us :salute:

 

It wasn't raised originally to start some kind of power struggle or discredit DGA in any way, but rather to give people something tangible for comparison when choosing a performance cam.

 

I'm afraid hp is what sells in this game, despite how good D&Gs intentions are. I know they are users and friends of the forum, but they are still a business at the end of the day, and therefore not exempt from the same scrutiny and criticsm (good or bad) that other companies face.

 

They will definitely sell a goodly number of cams on their good name and reputation, but if they are shown to make just 1 more hp than Schimmel's cams, they will sell a LOT more. It's a simple fact I'm afraid to say :D.

 

Not everyone understands why cams make the hp gains that they do, or why and how they affect the tractability of the engine. Some people are simply looking for the biggest bang for their buck. Hp gains was the main the reason we sold so many SP cams (over 50 sets) because 10hp per £100 was hitherto unheard of in aspirated VR6 tuning.

 

As good as Mr Sands's write up was, it can't be quantified as a tangible gain you will see on your own car. Reason being, I've driven a few VR6s with SP263s and one of them felt brilliant and 2 felt flat as farts. Similarly, I've driven standard VR6s which feel amazing and others that feel undeserving of a 'VR6' badge on the back. So as alluded to already, there is more to it than popping some cams into the engine.

 

A more scientific approach is required and why I suggested a back to back test on the same car, same dyno, same day (relative humidity, temp and barometric pressure can affect the reading by +/- 10hp on a standard VR6) etc. That way, the differences can only come from the cams. But I also said that's difficult and expensive to do, so these cams would be a leap of faith like some other car tuning products.

 

It's a leap I am more than likely going to take myself (if D&G will sell me a set after this, LOL!) because I do understand why cams work and I trust their judgement.

I can see some people thinking this is just me being obstinate as usual, but all I'm trying to do is help people make a more informed, bias free, decision.

[Yandards 0]

Hard numbers, hard to come by and hard to trust (as all rolling roads are not equal), as Kev has said, is the only way to do this.

 

Whilst my recent G60 mapping by DG has seen a huge gain in driveability, my AFR is now very steady at WOT as opposed to the pre-map spikes, I do not honestly know if I have more bhp and torque than before. I would say more than before because the tweaked map is now giving me the most from my set-up but without a before and after rolling road plot is difficult to say by how much and where it sits in the rev range.

 

In the longer term I do know that DG have a rolling road in kit form to be fitted in the workshop so I suspect it will only be a matter of time before they start providing owners with before and after maps for individual cars. As has already been mentioned age and condition effect the results of a modification and will vary between vehicles; although given the VRs ability to make book figures within a couple of bhp/lb ft a cam swap should be fairly predictable. Couple the cam fitment with a custom mapping session to ensure the engine package is producing its best and that will ensure you get the most from what you have.

 

As for bhp/tonne, a real number and very useful indeed, but there is another huge element to that equation - gearing. With 6 speeds to play with it's easier to keep the R32s on peak output than it is the VR, as you know only too well Kev a tweak of final drive makes a huge difference to acceleration and engine response.

[Jim 1]

I can see some people thinking this is just me being obstinate as usual, but all I'm trying to do is help people make a more informed, bias free, decision.

 

It may come across as being obstinate but I know that's not your intention at all. There are a lot of Snake Oil salesmen out there, and given that tuning can be a very hit and miss affair it's right to be sceptical and / or keen to see more information - and I know you're a stickler for detail. We've seen people on here spend BIG money on engine rebuilds, only to find their engines outperformed by a selection of well executed modifications on a comparatively standard engine.. so it can be a real minefield.

 

I guess a number of us will be defensive of DG because they're our friends, and we get great service when we go there - and I do truely believe they only have their customers interests at heart. And your point of reason being if they didn't think they could improve on the Schimmel cams, I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered.

 

But assuming that they were only comparable to the Schimmel ones (and not significantly better), at least they're now being made and are available here in the UK and we won't be subject to fluctuations in the dollar and the tax man screwing us for import duty! :) The Americans get patriotic about stuff being designed and built in America.. it's nice to be able to have a bit of that about UK designed VR6 (and Corrado in general) performance modificiations for once! :)

[davidwort 0]

...

As for bhp/tonne, a real number and very useful indeed, but there is another huge element to that equation - gearing. With 6 speeds to play with it's easier to keep the R32s on peak output than it is the VR, as you know only too well Kev a tweak of final drive makes a huge difference to acceleration and engine response.

 

one of my favourite alternative desriptions for a gearbox,'torque multiplier'

a revvy engine with the right gearing can transform a car, often really overlooked in road tuning,

of course the other side to this is the comparison of torque figures from rolling roads for different cars, most are run in 4th gear as that gives similar ratios generally, but I've not seen a rolling road that allows for actual gearing ratios to be added to even out results? I guess it's just not normally needed when tuning one vehicle?

I'm sure an R32 would still eat a 215bhp vr6 even if it is a fair bit heavier, 24 valve engine and a six speed box, not to mention the torque spread from variable valve timing and inlet.

 

Oh, and there's two types of tuning company, ones that trade on quoted BHP figures and those that build a reputation from satisfied customers :)

[wazza 0]

 

Oh, and there's two types of tuning company, ones that trade on quoted BHP figures and those that build a reputation from satisfied customers :)

 

Beat me to it! :salute:

 

(I'm one of them :wave: )

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Whilst my recent G60 mapping by DG has seen a huge gain in driveability, my AFR is now very steady at WOT as opposed to the pre-map spikes, I do not honestly know if I have more bhp and torque than before. I would say more than before because the tweaked map is now giving me the most from my set-up but without a before and after rolling road plot is difficult to say by how much and where it sits in the rev range.

 

Yep, stands to reason that less than optimum timing / fuelling in that load site saps power. Fuels have improved enormously since the G60 and VR6 were originally mapped, so there's room for improvement in the mapping for sure!

 

In the longer term I do know that DG have a rolling road in kit form to be fitted in the workshop so I suspect it will only be a matter of time before they start providing owners with before and after maps for individual cars.

 

Good to know 8)

 

as you know only too well Kev a tweak of final drive makes a huge difference to acceleration and engine response.

 

Absolutely and it's a mod I've been banging on about on here for years :D It really does bring alive a VR6 and imagine the improvement in acceleration you would see from these cams AND a 3.68 final drive?

 

I guess a number of us will be defensive of DG because they're our friends, and we get great service when we go there - and I do truely believe they only have their customers interests at heart. And your point of reason being if they didn't think they could improve on the Schimmel cams, I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered.

 

Absolutely and they are definitely very customer focussed people. I'm not trying to take anything away from DG at all. They are very nice blokes and clever and humble with it :D I have no doubt in my mind the cams are great. I'd just like to see some graphs and numbers so that I can predict where I will see the improvements on my own, admittedly VERY different engine. That's just me. As you say, I like the finer details!

 

But assuming that they were only comparable to the Schimmel ones (and not significantly better), at least they're now being made and are available here in the UK and we won't be subject to fluctuations in the dollar and the tax man screwing us for import duty! :) The Americans get patriotic about stuff being designed and built in America.. it's nice to be able to have a bit of that about UK designed VR6 (and Corrado in general) performance modificiations for once! :)

 

Agreed. It's nice to have a sensibly priced cam available in the UK, especially as the Euro value has now made cams from Germany too expensive.

 

Oh, and there's two types of tuning company, ones that trade on quoted BHP figures and those that build a reputation from satisfied customers :)

 

And some achieve both. Why compromise? :wink:

[Mr Sands 0]

Thank you Gareth, for understanding the need to dicuss hp gains and for providing a real world example of how it can benefit us :salute:

 

I do absolutely understand the need to discuss hp gains; I wouldn't originally have quoted any hp gain figure for my car else.

 

As good as Mr Sands's write up was, it can't be quantified as a tangible gain you will see on your own car. Reason being, I've driven a few VR6s with SP263s and one of them felt brilliant and 2 felt flat as farts. Similarly, I've driven standard VR6s which feel amazing and others that feel undeserving of a 'VR6' badge on the back. So as alluded to already, there is more to it than popping some cams into the engine.

 

And therefore having quoted the specific hp gains for my car, to give the only kind of stat that I can give so far for any gain, I then wrote the write-up that I did. Nowhere did I try to suggest that my write-up in any way offered scientific or measurable quantification for the difference made to my car; in fact, the write-up's entire ethos was to try to do the opposite and offer my thoroughly unscientific bum dyno's feedback.

 

Kev, I will quite happily admit that my particular technical and mechanical knowledge is non-existent compared with yours. I also fully accept your reason for starting this thread as being to obtain some hard facts about specific gains if these cams are fitted. My apologies if my write-up isn't the kind of scientific proof that you're after; I simply can't offer that and don't really feel that it's my place too, given that this is my only experience of cams on a VR.

 

However, I would be so bold as to suggest that for a sizeable contingent of Corrado owners, it's not necessarily all about hp gains. Perhaps I am the only one in this minority? Nevertheless, I have always been far more interested in the more intangible qualities of any upgrade eg refinement of driving experience, which perhaps can't be measured.

 

It was for the people like me that I offered up that review. Unscientific and unquantifiable it might be but it would have been the kind of thing that I would have been more interested in reading, pre-cams, than just the overall hp gain, which, frankly, was of less interest to me. Sorry if that doesn't quite fit with your intended direction for this thread. :D

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Kev, I will quite happily admit that my particular technical and mechanical knowledge is non-existent compared with yours. I also fully accept your reason for starting this thread as being to obtain some hard facts about specific gains if these cams are fitted. My apologies if my write-up isn't the kind of scientific proof that you're after; I simply can't offer that and don't really feel that it's my place too, given that this is my only experience of cams on a VR.

 

However, I would be so bold as to suggest that for a sizeable contingent of Corrado owners, it's not necessarily all about hp gains. Perhaps I am the only one in this minority? Nevertheless, I have always been far more interested in the more intangible qualities of any upgrade eg refinement of driving experience, which perhaps can't be measured.

 

It was for the people like me that I offered up that review. Unscientific and unquantifiable it might be but it would have been the kind of thing that I would have been more interested in reading, pre-cams, than just the overall hp gain, which, frankly, was of less interest to me. Sorry if that doesn't quite fit with your intended direction for this thread. :D

 

No need to apologise. Your write-up was both informative and valued by non-techies and techies alike. A lot of people do appreciate and prefer a real world appraisal and you provided that perfectly. Once again I feel I have to try defend myself by saying I'm not trying to be a fly in an otherwise harmonious ointment, but there is always one nerd in every group and on this occasion, I put my hands up as being that nerd :D

[Abdul 0]

Is it just me or does anyone else manage to make mince meat of R32's in the straights? I've got a RR print out from a year or two ago showing 203bhp (cant remember the torque) which i felt was pretty good for a more or less standard engine with 155k on it...

 

I would love to go out in a DG or Schimmel cam'd rado if anyone around london/essex has one? See if they live up to the hype compared to a stock rado...

[4eyes2wheels 0]

Got mine today.

 

More torque and power everywhere.

 

No graphs to prove it. Don't know the numbers before. Don't know the numbers after.

 

But it GOES SO WELL NOW!

 

Thanks DG!

[fla 9]

Dave, Graham? I've got some 264 cams i'll be installing in the spring. Would you be able to remap the car for these too?

[wy906 0]

This is a good thread. I’ve never considered doing any engine mod before but the info here provided by DG, Kev and Co are very informative.

 

Certainly am considering my options now. :salute:

[Conker 0]

This is a good thread. I’ve never considered doing any engine mod before but the info here provided by DG, Kev and Co are very informative.

 

Certainly am considering my options now. :salute:

 

 

I will be considering it when the engine finally needs serious work (touch wood). Eg. head refurb etc.