Advice on lumpy, erratic 2.0 16v - being a bit crap again..

[davidwort 0]

Well i'll certainly note down any thing i've changed / tested etc. Tempest is suggesting testing a new ISV and the cold start injector - but they cost a bomb so not really an option atm.

 

Jim, you're welcome to borrow a ISV and cold start injector from me, I have a couple of spares at home, I'm just off J15 at Northampton if you're ever this way or I might make it up to the Cov meet.

 

David.

[Jim 1]

May well take you up on that offer mate.. getting fairly desperate. Would be good if I could get em before the 25th when i'm at Stealth as we could chop / change stuff then...?

 

Are you around any of this coming weekend? It'd be a nice short blast down the M1 to meet you to pick em up...

[corradophil 3]

Phil, id be interested in seeing that scan if posss. Cheers Andrew

 

 

 

Lippy, :? Somehow this thread has hidden from me since my last post which was 20th September, I've been on here almost every day since then!

 

I'll get the relavent pages scanned and uploaded!

[Lippy 0]

Phil, no danger! i'd slept since then and forgot I'd posted it!!!!

[Tempest 0]

Don't need a new cold start injector, just need to take it out, test it with the thermotime switch to see whether the thermotime switch does what it's supposed to do (i.e. cut out the fuel supply after either 8 or seconds or above 25°C), and see it's spray pattern. Spray pattern testing on the injectors would be a doddle as well, nearly did that last Saturday, just didn't have 4 glasses to let the fuel run into :-(.

 

Still some carb spray left to test for vac leaks. Could start by spraying that around the injectors, if idle changes, bingo, knackered injector O-rings. Fortunately a lot of things on the 16V 9A are very similar to the K-Jet 8 valvers :-) apart from some nasty ECU-nonsense ;-)

 

Tempest

[corradophil 3]

Right here we go, this is the scan from the manual for setting the idle Co on a 9a with KE-Motronic.

 

You only need items 29 - 37 under the heading "KE-Motronic system".

 

You will need a digital multimeter to measure the current, you'll have to make up some cables to allow the multimeter to be introduced into the circuit and finally you will need a long allen key to turn the adjustment screw (Not sure what size it is, but I can measure mine when I get home).

 

The Differential Pressure Regulator (DPR) is on the side of the airbox towards the front of the car and faces to the centre of the engine bay - it would be much easier if I had a photo or diagram, but could find one, and not had a chance to get the camera out. The DPR has one electrical plug connected to it. I'm sure it will be clear once under the bonnet.

[veedub 0]

Sorry, I havent read through the whole thread but I had a very similar problem with my first valver. It simply turned out to be a loose jublee clip that was attaching the vacume pipe to the bottom of the ISV.

Sorry if thats already been posted! :lol:

[Phil K 0]

I have a nasty feeling that it's the adjustment that Phil is talking about that can kill the airflow meter - both Vince and Tim (the Phirm) have said that it's worth staying well clear of it... appologies if I'm wrong ;)

 

EDIT: having looked at the attachment it is deffinately the bit they are both saying to leave well alone...

[davidwort 0]

I have a nasty feeling that it's the adjustment that Phil is talking about that can kill the airflow meter - both Vince and Tim (the Phirm) have said that it's worth staying well clear of it... appologies if I'm wrong ;)

 

EDIT: having looked at the attachment it is deffinately the bit they are both saying to leave well alone...

 

there shouldn't be a problem adjusting the idle CO in this way, it's just the same as K-jet and about 1/4 turn will simply raise/lower the CO by a couple of percent. The pressure regulator unit itself on the side of the metering head may be very sensitive to tampering, this has to be precise enough with adjusting the fuel mixture to make the car run clean enough for working with a CAT (the extra bit for KE-jet).

If the metering distributor has been replaced or removed from the main body that houses the air-flow plate it may be that the free travel of the plate at idle is wrong, so the idle CO adjustment just can't be turned enough to compensate.

 

There is also a problem with people adjusting the CO in that they press too hard when adjusting or rev the engine, both can damage the adjuster.

 

I bet most of the pissing around with these units is due to DIYers (like myself :oops: ) messing about, or MOT stations adjusting it to get the car through emissions tests, unfortunately, unless a car has had major modifications it's usually another problem in the system that causes emissions variations or lean running and then the fiddling with the metering head is done to try to compensate. If left well alone they are really reliable!

 

David.

[Tempest 0]

Just having looked at the 9A on my PC, the metering unit looks very familiar, similar to the one on my 2 Roccos.

 

Without any feedback for the CO-value, it is like stabbing in the dark trying to set the CO-screw.

 

The JH-code engine has a nifty Lambda-ECU-output, where you can read the output voltage, which is proportional to the CO-value, hence making adjusting the CO-screw relatively simple (done that numerous times, since having messed about with unheated and heated Lambda sensors, as my HCs often were too high for the MOT, still legal, but high). Got it all soprted thanks to the use of a heated sensor, and some more adjusting of the CO-screw. Hope this is as simple on the 9A ;-)

 

Tempest

[Jim 1]

Looking forward to my trip to david's tomorrow - fingers crossed we can work out wtf is causing me all this trouble. Past few days have been dire :(

 

Worth mentioning though, I think I might be onto a pattern.. what on earth could be to blame if the car seems to misbehave more when on a slope?! Maybe a figment of my imagination but I started thinking about it more and more and whenever the car was acting up again, I was having to stop on some road that wasn't level, etc...

[davidwort 0]

Just having looked at the 9A on my PC, the metering unit looks very familiar, similar to the one on my 2 Roccos.

 

Without any feedback for the CO-value, it is like stabbing in the dark trying to set the CO-screw.

...Tempest

 

you need an ear for it :)

I remember watching my dad set up the CO by listening to the engine, how smooth it was running, whacked it on the MOT bay gas tester and it was bang on - well impressed - unless it was a very lucky guess :lol:

 

Jim, I hope the slope business isn't suggesting it's fuel pump related :(

[Tempest 0]

Time to get the fuel manometer out then? Got one ...

 

set up the CO by listening to the engine

Well, easy to set the ignition timing by ear, yes, but CO-value? Wow!

 

Tempest

[corradophil 3]

I have a nasty feeling that it's the adjustment that Phil is talking about that can kill the airflow meter - both Vince and Tim (the Phirm) have said that it's worth staying well clear of it... appologies if I'm wrong Wink

 

EDIT: having looked at the attachment it is deffinately the bit they are both saying to leave well alone...

 

I can't make any guatantees, for anyone else, but firstly it is the same basic idle adjustment as in a K-Jet car, but rather than just using a CO metre it is setting it back to where it should be from factory. Cannot see how you can do a actual damage unless you apply pressure via the allen key on screw adjuster, or rev the engine with the allen key in place. All I can say is, I set mine this way after carefull reading of the instructions, and the emmisions at the last mot were as follows.

 

Fast Idle

CO 0.05% vol

HC 21ppm vol

Lambda 1.001

 

Natural idle

Co 015%

 

It runs very well set using this method.

 

I think the risk is down to how much care is taken when setting it up, as with all things if you're unsure, either confirm the correct procedure, or get someone who knows what they're doing to do it.

[TomB 0]

How did you get on Jim? What was the cause of the problem?

[Phil K 0]

Phil, fair play matey... having had such a massive run of bad luck with 5 of these units now I'm far too warey of touching them :lol:

[davidwort 0]

How did you get on Jim? What was the cause of the problem?

 

We had a look at Jim's car today and after marking the timing marks with a blob of paint discovered the advance was almost 11 deg at idle and wavering around a bit with it (used the flywheel marks to set it up and flywheel tallied with cam belt pulleys so no sheared woodruff keys!)

 

Set the idle advance to 6 deg and went from there, tested the HT leads, coil lead was over resistance by about 25% - ok-ish 2,3,4 were all in tolerance but one had no reading at all, car still runs OK on it (we swapped a lead from mine over and it made no difference) but it's obviously close to shot, so a new set of leads are in order- missed GSF closing by like 2 minutes :mad:

 

Jim hasn't managed to get the injector O rings swapped yet so they may not be helping, ISV seems to be working but whether it is leaking a bit we're not 100% sure.

There was a vac leak from the aux air valve? (behind air metering unit), seems to be two small units here, I'm sure K-jet only has the one?? and we're not sure if it was just disturbed when we lifted the air filter out to check the air-flap/plunger smoothness, or it was perhaps partially off before.

 

Seems to be a bit better now but idle sometimes sticks a bit high (like the ISV is sticking occasionally) at about 1200rpm, e.g. when de-clutching after driving and dropping to idle. When it does idle at the right level it seems about right, 900 rpm ish, perhaps a bit lower, although as I said, the timing does seem to wabble either side of 6 deg a bit more than I'm used to.

If you stop and re-start the idle will settle fine at the lower correct level, apart from it's wavering.

 

When Jim has the new HT leads on then at least he'll be able to cross that off the list, they are definitely not helping.

 

Most of the other vac hoses seem OK but the large diameter hose on the front of the block/breather unit is a bit loose and could do with a jubilee clip around it.

 

Engine sounds reasonably healthy though and the metering unit looks like it hasn't been tampered with and the plunger is lovely and smooth so we're hoping it isn't the metering head at fault.

 

Jim's to do list: :)

 

HT leads

injector o-rings

clean ISV again? - borrow another 2L one to check?

duct tape over holes in the air box :lol:

jubilee clip around breather outlet on front of block

rotor arm

compression test - be good to see how even they are

OEM inlet pipe instead of the power rohr

timing belt cover

 

sorry Jim, i'll get off your case now :lol:

 

 

David.

[Jim 1]

lol :)

 

Just want to thank you (and your dad - and Eric, again!) for giving up time to help me yesterday. When driving the car on your #1 ignition lead it honestly did make a lot of difference to the feel of the drive (which is one of those things you can only describe when you've had a few months with a car and know its quirks!) so i'm very optimistic now that with the timing set and a new set of leads (will be ordering them this afternoon) that its going to be much better. On the way to your dads, every time I dropped the clutch the revs fell to where they should have been and just sat there.. a definate improvement. On the way home (without your #1 lead on) revs were immediately dropping down to 400/500RPM before righting themselves again, etc.. I think that #1 lead has a lot to answer for.

 

Along with that little laundry list, need to get some belts changed to eliminate that awful squealing! Think its the alternator or pas belt.. but definately made excellent progress and its sort of stopped me from worrying about the car a bit as it has been causing me a few headaches, wondering what on earth could be at fault!

[Jim 1]

lol - forgot to mention that to add to my woes, my 'headlight loom' appears to be going the way of dinkus's. Last night flicked on the headlights and they just only went onto side lights regardless of the position. Opened the bonnet and prodded the relay box and the headlights came on.

 

Tried them again this morning and doing the same again but prodding the relay box produces a small orange spark in the relay box but not much more! Joy!! :|

[Supercharged 2]

Try a couple of new relays Jim - it's just water corrosion

[Jim 1]

Yeah - figured as much mate. Will get down to Halfrauds asap.

[davidwort 0]

Yeah - figured as much mate. Will get down to Halfrauds asap.

 

funny you should say that, yesterday I saw your loom fuses tucked down by the battery/radiator and thought 'another one that's going to give trouble' - we were so engrosed in everything else though I forgot to mention it, the wires looked well corroded where they were exposed close to the crimp connectors.

 

Oh, by the way, relays are IRO 2 quid from Maplins, doubt whether halfords are as cheap.

[Tempest 0]

Yup, got mine from maplins when I did my loom :-)

 

Gallagher Retail Park, Jim.

 

Tempest

[Jim 1]

Eric had pointed out the poor quality of the loom also before.. but as I have no electrical knowledge, i'll just have to manage with it for now.

 

Its just an amusing coincidence that it decided to act up now!

[Crasher 3]

That’s why I fit the relays on top of the fuse box, you lose 0.2 volt at the headlight over relays next to the battery but what the hell.